CLAUSE 47.—(Provision of milk and meals at schools maintained by local education authorities.) (Hansard, 23 March 1944)

§ Mr. Parker
I beg to move, in page 39, line 35, after "providing," to insert "free."
I would like to discuss this Amendment together with my next Amendment, which is consequential. Many of us take the view that not only should the medical service be free, but that the provision of milk and meals in schools also should be free. If children are to get full benefit from their education, they must be properly fed, and we do not take the view that the system should be continued of collecting money, provided by their parents, from some school children for their meals, and not from others. We do not think that this distinction should be made between two types of children, one of which may be better off than the other. The provision of free school meals as a matter of course, is not only necessary for building the physique of children, 1150 but it enables them to benefit in other ways. It enables the school to be run as a whole, from the time it meets in the morning to the time it breaks up in the afternoon. The point was made many years ago by Sidney Webb, that if you had a school in which the meals were taken by the school as a whole, you would get, in the running of the school in the day-time, most of the advantages of a boarding school, from the fact that you would have the whole day to play with in the arrangement of your programme.
Secondly, many of us take the view that, if you are providing meals as a matter of course, you can raise the nutritional standards of the population much more rapidly than if you do not. Many hon. Members will have had the experience, during the time of the evacuation, of receiving letters from different parts of the country, from parents or from people looking after children who had been evacuated. As an example of letters which I myself received, I was told about children evacuated into Norfolk who had been accustomed to having bread and jam for most of their meals, and who were surprised to get breakfast foods and salads. They thought that they were being starved. The growth of the school meals service has led to a great raising of the nutritional standards of school children, not only because the children have been fed at school, but because parents have copied the school in providing foods which children have grown to like at school. Many of us feel that if you have school meals, as a normal part of the school programme, for all children, as a matter of course, the educational work will go forward more rapidly. Through building up the physique of the children, you will get a healthier population as a whole, while, as a result, the children will benefit far more from the education given them.

Mr. Butter
I think I may be able to curtail discussion on the Clause if I explain why the Clause is drawn in general terms. The Clause has been drafted in these general terms to give the Minister power to decide certain matters, and, when I come to move an Amendment in my own name later, I think it will be seen that we want to meet every point of view. The point raised by the hon. Member is one which I think can also be understood, but I hope he will not press his Amend- 1151 ment when I tell the Committee what the Government have in mind. The position is this. The present situation regarding school meals will carry on normally until Part II of this Bill comes into operation, that is, on 1st April, 1945. After that, were there no such power to make Regulations, there would be no power to continue the present service of meals. Therefore, we have taken power by Regulation. Why have we not defined the situation more closely in the Bill and referred to the possibility of free meals? The answer is this—and it is letting out no secret to state it. We do hope that, in due course, the Government will come forward with their policy of social security, and, in that case, it will be necessary to frame our Regulations so as to fit in with any general scheme that may be introduced. For example, there have been Government statements on family allowances. The question of school milk has been mentioned by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it would be necessary, in the event of such a happy occasion as the Government's introduction of a scheme for social security, to adjust the provision of school meals and milk to fit in with the Government's policy. That is why we have been obliged to keep this Clause elastic. I hope that, with that assurance, that the Government would bring its social security policy in line with the school meals policy, the Committee will not need to spend too long on this Clause to-day.
I should like to thank the hon. Member for the statement he made about the school meals service. Three years ago, 300,000 children were taking school meals; to-day, the number is about 1,500,000. At present, one in three of all pupils present in school are getting meals in school; in secondary schools, the figure exceeds one in two. There has been a great administrative drive during the last 12 months and very nearly half a million more children are taking school meals. This drive reflects the very greatest credit on local authorities and all the officers concerned. The Government attach first-class importance to this drive, and I myself attach the greatest importance to it. I think it is extremely satisfactory that the hon. Member should have moved his Amendment in the spirit in which he has done, but I hope that, as I have given him the reason, he will not desire to press it.

§ Mr. Parker
What percentage of meals at present are paid for?

§ Mr. Butler
I have not got the exact figures, but the normal procedure is to charge about 5d. for the cost of the food, except in necessitous cases, where there is no charge.

§ Mr. Cove
I want an assurance from the Chair that the Amendments down on the Paper regarding the arrangement for school meals will not be passed over. There was a phrase in the right hon. Gentleman's speech which rather made me feel that they might be. I hope that is not so.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
I am not quite sure to which Amendment the hon. Member is referring. It was rather understood—and perhaps I ought to have said this earlier—that a general discussion on free meals should take place here. I think that was the idea of the Chair.

§ Mr. Cove
There is an Amendment in the name of the right hon. Gentleman himself, and there are also Amendments in my name. I am making representations that we may have the chance to discuss the points on the Minister's Amendment.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
On the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, possibly, it may be suitable to do so.

§ Dr. Haden Guest
On the subject of free meals, I hope the Minister will remember that there is more at stake than merely giving children who are necessitous meals without payment. It is most undesirable that, in any school, there should be two classes of children—those who pay for their meals and those who do not. Undoubtedly, we ought to parallel free education with free meals at school. It is even more necessary. If I had to choose myself whether my own children were fed or educated, I would certainly have them fed first, and so would any other sensible man in this Committee. I feel that we should have a little more information from the Minister. He said very persuasively that one in three of the children, in elementary schools in general, were receiving school meals or milk, or school meals as well as milk. That means that two out of three are not being fed—that only 33 per cent. are being fed and 66 per cent. are not being fed.

§ Mr. Butler
Some of them live near the schools.

Dr. Guest
My own feeling is very strong indeed, that only 33 per cent. are being fed, and I am glad the number has gone up from the 26 per cent. of a little while ago, after there had been a strong administrative drive in the direction of the provision of meals. I have been concerned with trying to get school meals for children for a very long period—about 40 years. There has always been the best possible support expressed about the desirability of feeding children, but not until the war brought the possibility of the starvation of children, have we been able to provide for the feeding of this number of children in school. I consider that it is not a satisfactory performance. The Government ought to lay down definitely that on a certain date they propose that all children in school shall be certified as being adequately fed, and, preferably, that they shall be fed in schools, because I am convinced that that is the only way of getting adequate feeding. We have now reached a time when children, and the feeding of children, are at a premium. They have a priority. The Minister is not going to tell us that that priority will always continue. No one would be more delighted than I would if it did but I do not think that will be so. We ought to have an assurance that the Minister will give very careful consideration to this point. I should like to see this Amendment for free meals pressed to a Division, to see how many people in the Committee would venture to vote against something which is an obvious piece of commonsense, quite apart from being humanitarian.

§ Mr. R. Morgan (Stourbridge)
Is the hon. Member assuming that the parents of these children do not feed them at home? I know parents who would go without themselves, in order to feed their children, and I think it is a very wrong assumption and a libel on parents.

Dr. Guest
I am not assuming that all children are not fed, but I know that some are not properly fed. It is not a question of having money. I remember some years ago I made inquiries into the medical conditions of some of the very largest and best-known public schools in this country, and in some of the very best public schools, those whose names are historic, I found, from the 1154 medical officers concerned, evidence of definite malnutrition in certain cases because parents did not understand how to feed their children. The Minister may think this is not in Order, but I hope it is as much in Order as some of the discussion which we have had already.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
The hon. Member himself does not think this is in Order. I was going to point out to him that it is impossible to go into the history of every individual Member and what he has done in the past. It is quite simple to keep to the point.

Dr. Guest
I do not want to prolong the discussion unduly, but I hope that, on this simple question of feeding children, the Minister will give an assurance that the Government are going to make 100 per cent. their objective, instead of the 75 per cent, which, I understand, the Board of Education have made their objective. If he will give that assurance, possibly I will withdraw my suggestion of a Division.

§ Mr. Cove
I could not follow the hon. Member on this question. The school feeding scheme has been a magnificent thing, particularly during the war, and I congratulate the Board and the Minister on the drive that has been behind it. If I could get Socialism as quickly in this country, I should be very well satisfied. But I want to see better facilities, and better staffing—staff definitely appointed for the purpose of feeding and so on. We have a lot of leeway to make up. Children are being fed in ordinary schools where there were no facilities for it at the beginning of the war. I must say that, though I am mostly a critic of the Government, in this case, quite definitely, there has been a magnificent achievement under very great difficulties. If I could get an instalment of the Socialism I want as quickly as this, I would take off my hat and congratulate the Minister.

§ Captain Cobb
I rise in order to remove a misapprehension which appears to rest in the mind of the Minister. If he imagines that every Member of the Committee is jumping for joy at the prospect of the provision of completely free meals far every member of the school population, he is mistaken. I am one of those who do not believe that social reform means the pauperisation of the population. If what is meant is free meals in necessitous 1155 cases, I am all in favour of it, but this sort of legislation, to remove the responsibilities of parents, is something to which I object.

§ Mr. Colegate
I wish to protest very strongly against the speech from the other side of the Committee with regard to the 100 per cent. objective for the feeding of children in school. It may be that the county, part of which I have the honour to represent, has a higher standard than that of the hon. Member who has spoken, but a large number of parents, from those living in cottages upwards, give their children most excellent meals in the middle of the day. The mothers look forward with the greatest pleasure to having their children at a family meal, and I think that anyone who knows anything about children—and I have some myself—knows that it is one of the features of a happy family life. We all know that there are necessitous children, and, as the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) has said, considerable progress has been made to remove that blot on the school parent; but do not let it go forth that the majority of parents do not feed their children adequately, and that they do not look forward to the midday break when they can sit down to a meal with their children.

§ Mr. Lindsay
I want to ask a question about the social security measure. Do not let us fool ourselves about school feeding. The Board and the local authorities have done an extremely good job. The main fact is that it is 100 per cent.

§ Mr. Butler
It is only 100 per cent. for equipment. There is a sliding scale for other expenditure.

§ Mr. Lindsay
And it goes up to 70 per cent. and 90 per cent., I think. The other point is that we are rationed, and, therefore, these are very important parts of the increase. The reason for this is not to cast any aspersions on the work that has been done, but to see that these conditions may not continue after the war. Not long ago the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, when Home Secretary, made a statement about children's allowances. Eight shillings was suddenly cut down to 5s. and a portion was given in kind. My right hon. Friend said that this proposal will be announced with the Government's policy on social security. No one could 1156 be more pleased than I to know that this dovetailing between one Department and another is to happen. We have not seen it on the question of juvenile delinquency between the Home Office and the Ministry of Labour, as announced to-day. We would like to know whether this is to be in lieu of meals and milk. Can my right hon. Friend give an indication of the policy? He simply says that it is to be announced later.

§ Mr. Butler
I am not responsible for Government policy in this matter, and that is why I cannot make any announcement in this Debate, but I want to dovetail into the policy of children's meals and milk what is intended by this provision, and that is to be done by regulations. The matter will come before the House which will then be able to decide, and in the light of the decision of the House, with whom the matter still rests, these Regulations can be drawn.

§ Mr. Woodburn
Unnecessary heat was engendered over the last point about free meals. No one wishes to suggest that two-thirds of the children in schools are being neglected under the present scheme. At the same time, this may have the effect that my hon. Friend did not want it to have, and that is, that it might exclude necessitous children from getting the meals. Children are proud, and I am informed by medical officers of health that children will not confess in school that their parents are necessitous, but would sooner do without the food. Therefore, you have the tragedy that, although the Minister is willing to provide meals, children who ought to have the meals will not take them because they do not want to humiliate themselves and because a means test is imposed. Children are cruel to children and if any child is necessitous, other children do not mind reminding it of the fact in the playground, and it introduces a very bad spirit indeed.

§ Mr. Cove
Does my hon. Friend mean to say that Johnny would say to Tommy, in the playground, "You have free meals."

§ Mr. Woodburn
Yes.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Must we pursue this further?

§ Mr. Magnay (Gateshead)
If I remember rightly, the Scottish Education Bill, less than two years ago, provided a means test.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Then the hon. Member cannot refer to it here.

§ Mr. Woodburn
We are dealing with a different case. It has been said that all children should be given free meals, and hon. Members opposite have said that only necessitous children should be given free meals. I was pointing out that the financial barrier had an effect on necessitous children who required meals. Children are very peculiar.

§ Captain Cobb
They are only peculiar in Scotland.

§ Mr. Woodburn
They are very proud in Scotland.

§ Captain Cobb
"Peculiar," I said.

§ Mr. Woodburn
They are very proud and would rather starve than accept humiliation. Adequate school meals should be provided, not only from the point of view of their bodies, but as part of their education in good manners, good taste and other things.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Does the hon. Member wish to withdraw the Amendment?

§ Mr. Parker
Yes, Sir.

§ Sir John Mellor
I beg to move, in page 39, line 36, to leave out "in attendance," and to insert "on the rolls."

§ Mr. Butler
I am advised that it would not be wise to press the Amendment, for two reasons, first, because the expression "on the rolls" is rather out of date, and the correct expression would be "registered pupils." It is only a technical matter. The other reason is that there is no need for the Amendment, since the present Clause enables the benefits mentioned in the Clause to be provided on days they do not attend, that is, during the holidays. It is not necessary to define the Clause more closely and I do not think that my hon. Friend need be apprehensive.

§ Sir J. Mellor
In view of the explanation of my right hon. Friend, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Butler
I beg to move, in page 39, line 41, to leave out "and," and to insert: (including any buildings or equipment to be provided) and as to. 1158 This is the first of a series of Amendments proposed by the Government, and it might be for the convenience of the Committee if I mentioned the various proposals in one general series of remarks. There is, for example, the present Amendment referring to the need for making regulations about equipment, and there are one or two further Amendments, the main one of which is in page 39, line 44, about not imposing upon teachers at any school or college certain duties. The object of the Amendments which run together are twofold, first to enable regulations to be made on the subject of the buildings and equipment to be provided, which is a necessary provision, and secondly, to attempt to limit the duties of teachers in regard to these meals. The matter has been put before us in a very striking manner by teachers themselves and by others interested in their welfare. There is no doubt that if the matter is left undefined by the Committee, teachers might have put upon them duties which would be extraneous and might become very heavy indeed. If the teachers were expected to cook and serve and then to supervise meals as well, they would find the only complete break in the middle of the day completely removed, and furthermore, the duty of supervising meals would turn their service into one of drudgery.
I would like to pay tribute to the work that teachers have done in schools in respect of the provision of meals during war time. They have taken on very considerable extra burdens and as there is no doubt that these burdens should not be part of the teacher's lot, these regulations are drawn in such a way that the teacher can help with the meals and in such a way as not to impose upon teachers duties on days when the school or college is not open for the supervision of pupils. That means that the general duty of the teacher shall be one of supervising the children taking part in the daily act of the meal, which is part of the school life. I feel that no teacher will think that it is other than a pleasant duty. I hope that those who are interested in the furtherance of the provision of meals, will agree that the ideal will be when we can get sufficient staff, to run meals properly behind the schools. It involves a considerable amount of labour, and in various parts of the country we have depended upon persons who have been able to come in to help, including such organisations as the W.V.S. and others who help 1159 with canteens. To all of them I would like to pay tribute. In looking ahead, we hope that the authorities will so organise the meals that the teachers in. taking part in the meals and helping to supervise do not get such duties put upon them which are too much, physically and mentally, for them to carry out.

§ Mr. Cove
I want to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the approach that he has made to this question. He has met very largely the desire of the teachers. Emphasis is placed on the fact that teachers should be teachers. During the war, teachers have had to render services outside teaching to the detriment of the teaching service for which they have been trained and appointed. That was inevitable during the war. Teachers have, indeed, rendered great service in this respect but we are dealing with the future and a permanent scheme. It will be generally accepted that the Minister has met the main desires of the teachers in what he now proposes. I hope that in the future there will be an opportunity to appoint a regular staff to see to the school meals. We do not want teachers, after long training in colleges and universities, directed to jobs for which they have not been trained. This will meet the anxiety and the sort of nervous tension which has grown up since the war in the teaching service, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the approach he has made to it.

§ Mr. R. Morgan
I should like to endorse what has been said by the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove). I understand, Mr. Williams, that we are also considering the second Amendment which is to be proposed by the Minister.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
We are having a discussion on the general question, but we have already talked a good deal on it.

§ Mr. Morgan
I am as anxious as anybody on the Front Bench to get on with the Bill. I very much appreciate what the Minister has said about teachers assisting in the provision of meals. The Amendment is rather of a negative character and I would like to see a more positive form which enjoins the local authority to provide the necessary staff to do the work so well done by the teachers in the past.

Captain Pluge (Chatham)
Despite what my right hon. Friend has said about Clause 47, the purpose of the Amendment in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey and Otley (Sir G. Gibson) lay in the fact that teachers should not become nursery maids. Some mention should be made of what can be done to permit teachers to have some assistance in the giving of meals. The difficulty in which teachers are placed in serving the meals is that this extraneous duty occupies a considerable amount of their time in the school. The primary purpose of a school teacher is to educate children and not to feed or clothe or bathe them. Education should come first. "Milking time" as the children call it, is another way in which qualified teachers are made to waste their time. What with lack of accommodation, spilt milk, accountancy for those who pay daily, or weekly, or for their sisters and brothers, or not at all, the time passes, and the children go home knowing little more than they did before. If some reference were made in this Clause to the utilisation of domestic workers, it would make it much easier for the teachers to devote their time and knowledge to providing what is necessary for the children, namely to be taught according to the curriculum.

§ Professor Gruffydd
This Clause, as amended, now prescribes the directions to be given to three classes in the carrying out of duties in connection with the feeding of children and giving them free milk. We have had assurance that no extra duties will be laid upon the teachers, but since no assistance is provided to the teachers for carrying out these duties, it seems to me certain that the teachers will be called upon to help. Surely if we make provision here for carrying out the intention to feed the children, if some of the 1161 people are mentioned, all should be mentioned, otherwise it will be assumed that the people mentioned will be all that are concerned.

§ Mr. Butler
I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman, but the very words that are in this Clause, for example, "the facilities to be afforded," "the manner in which," and so forth, give an opportunity of making such regulation as will relieve the teachers of the burden which falls upon them. I have had an opportunity of discussing this with the teachers, and I think they are satisfied at the way in which we have tried to meet them.