HC Deb 16 March 1944 vol 398 cc408-11
Mr. Stokes

I wish to seek your guidance, Sir, on a matter of which I have given you notice. It concerns a notice on the Paper yesterday which reads: Sir John Wardlaw-Milne reported from the Select Committee on National Expenditure, pursuant to the Order of the House [3rd December] That they had addressed a Memorandum to the Prime Minister for the consideration of the War Cabinet. My submission is that the Select Committee is a Committee of the House and I understand they are perfectly entitled to report in secret to the Prime Minister and War Cabinet if they choose, but what useful purpose does it serve to put this announcement on the Order Paper unless there is some indication at the same time as to what the Report was about? We have no indication of any kind and we are not able to ask questions about it. Perhaps the procedure could be so altered that, when a Select Committee sees fit to make a report in secret, they should indicate the subject on which the Report has been made.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member will realise that the whole procedure is governed by a decision taken in the House, and the Committee is entitled to make a secret memorandum to the Prime Minister if it chooses. Therefore, no indication need or can be given as to what it is about. If one were to give an indication, it might be giving information away. If, for instance, it were stated on the Order Paper that a memorandum had been submitted to the Prime Minister on the defences of the road to Timbuctoo, or something like that, it would obviously be giving something away which it would be undesirable should be made known. Therefore, under the present procedure, it is not necessary, and it is also inadvisable, to state what the memorandum is about.

Mr. Bellenger

When the House goes into Secret Session on the fourth Sitting Day, can any reference be made to this document in the course of the Debate?

Mr. Speaker

We know nothing about the document. We only know that a memorandum has been submitted to the Prime Minister.

Mr. Bellenger

Does it mean to say that during the Secret Session no Member of the Select Committee, who of course must be cognisant of the contents of the document, can refer to it in any way?

Mr. Speaker

It is not permissible to quote from a document which has not been laid before the House. This document has not been laid, and no Member of the Committee can quote from it.

Sir A. Southby

Will it not be open to the House, in Secret Session, to ask that a memorandum which has been submitted by its own Committee should be produced and discussed during that Session?

Mr. Speaker

No. By Order of the House, the Committee is entitled to submit a secret memorandum to the Prime Minister, to which no one has access but the Prime Minister.

Mr. Stokes

May I draw your attention, Sir, to the fact that at Question time today the Prime Minister admitted having received a Report on tanks from the Select Committee which has not been reported to the House. We know, therefore, that the contents concern tanks and tank expenditure. Is there any reason why it should not be laid on the Table and disclosed to the House in Secret Session?

Mr. Speaker

By the Order that I have just referred to, the document cannot be laid on the Table and its contents may not be disclosed.

Mr. Stokes

Was the Prime Minister then out of Order in stating that he had received the Report?

Colonel Sir Charles McAndrew

Is it not the case that if a document which has not been presented to the House is quoted it does not have to be laid if its production would be inconsistent with the public interest?

Mr. Speaker

It is in Order far an hon. Member to speak of matters of which he has recollection, but not as a quotation from the document that I am speaking of. In such case I cannot tell where his information came from.

Sir William Davison

Is any useful purpose served by putting on the Order Paper the fact that a memorandum, which cannot be discussed or referred to, has been sent to the Prime Minister? What is the object of putting that notice on the Order Paper?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a matter for me.

Mr. Silverman

In answering a Question earlier, the Prime Minister referred to a document about tanks. He did not say that it was a secret document, and I infer that it was not. As he referred to it, would not the House be entitled to ask for its production?

Mr. Speaker

Assuming that it was a secret document—I assume that it was—the document by Order of the House cannot be produced.

Mr. Shinwell

Is it not highly improper to discuss the nature of the Business with which we are to deal in a Secret Session? We know nothing about the contents of this document. Some Members appear to know all about it but most of us know nothing about it. If it is to be discussed, surely it ought to be discussed when the Secret Session takes place.

Mr. Silverman

I am not referring to any of those matters at all. I am referring only to the answer given by the Prime Minister. I do not know whether we are to infer that it was referring to any secret document. He did not say so but, assuming that he was, how can the Ruling that you have just given, Mr. Speaker, be reconciled with the general practice of the House that, if a Minister refers to a document, the House is entitled to see the document?

Mr. Speaker

That is what I call a hypothetical question. The hon. Member starts by assuming that the Prime Minister referred to a secret document. We can see in HANSARD to-morrow exactly what was said.