HC Deb 27 July 1944 vol 402 cc940-4

Lords Amendment: In page 23, line 37, at end, insert new Clause B: (Provisions as to religious instruction in accordance with agreed syllabus.) (1) The provisions of the Seventh Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to the preparation, adoption, and reconsideration, of an agreed syllabus of religious instruction. (2) A local education authority shall have power, upon the recommendation of any conference convened in accordance with the provisions of the said Schedule, to constitute a standing advisory council on religious education to advise the authority upon matters connected with the religious instruction to be given in accordance with an agreed syllabus and, in particular, as to methods of teaching, the choice of books, and the provision of lectures for teachers. (3) The method of appointment of the members of any council constituted under the last foregoing subsection and the term of office and conditions of retirement of the members thereof shall be such as may be determined by the local education authority, but the authority shall have regard to any recommendations with respect to those matters which may be made to them by such a conference as aforesaid.

Lords Amendment read a Second time.

Mr. Butler

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amend- ment, in Sub-section (2) of the proposed new Clause, to leave out: upon the recommendation of any conference convened in accordance with the provisions of the said Schedule. For the convenience of the House I should remind them that I shall ask them shortly to agree with the Lords in the said Amendment but I must draw attention to certain Government Amendments to this Clause which are on the Order Paper.

In Sub-section {2) of the proposed new Clause we wish to leave out the words which I have just indicated; and in Subsection {3) of the proposed new Clause, we propose to leave out from the first "authority" to the end of the Sub-section and to put in a new Sub-section (4), which is on the Order Paper, and which says: A local education authority shall have regard to any unanimous recommendations which may be made to them by any conference convened in accordance with the provisions of the said Seventh Schedule with respect to the expediency of constituting such an advisory council as aforesaid or with respect to the method by which or the terms and conditions upon which members of any such Council should be appointed. We shall then consider the Lords Amendment, as amended in the sense suggested by the Government.

First I will tell the House the reason for amendment. It was thought better to hang the reference to the Seventh Schedule in the Bill we are considering, which deals with the method of establishing and drawing up an agreed syllabus, solely on a definition. We have therefore to hang that Schedule on a proper Clause of its own and we have brought in the question of the standing advisory committee. Those who are familiar with local government know that a local authority has, under existing local government law, the power to set up such an advisory committee if it desires. The object of our Amendments is to say, as we have done in the new Sub-section (4) which I have read, that the local education authority shall have regard to any unanimous recommendations which may be made to them by any conference. The conference referred to in the Amendment is the one to which more detailed reference is made in the Seventh Schedule.

The value of the Amendments which the Government are making is that they draw the attention of the local education authority to the need for having regard to any unanimous recommendation which the conference might make. The value of that is obvious to the House, namely, that the matter shall proceed upon agreement with the interested parties and to which the local authority shall have regard. Under the old Bill, when it left this House it might have been thought that the conference would disappear, but the value of this Amendment, as amended by the Government, is not only that it is possible to set up an advisory council under the Bill, quite apart from what the local authority might have done under its own powers, but also that the local authority have to pay attention to a unanimous recommendation of the conference. In the circumstances, I think that the Amendment made in another place and the Amendments suggested to it now by the Government are improvements upon the original Bill.

Mr. McEntee

Will the Minister say why he is so insistent on the word "unanimous" in the conferences? Frequently, in conferences of any kind, you get someone who will not allow a unanimous decision on anything. I have attended so many conferences that I rather sense the possibility of such an individual getting into this conference and preventing a very good decision being taken because he is of the type of mind that would never allow a unanimous decision to take place upon anything.

Mr. Ede

Unanimity in this particular case means unanimity between the four distinct groups of people. The conference is composed of persons representing the education authority, teachers, the Church of England, and other religious denominations. There might not be unanimity on the part of everyone, but that does not prejudice an agreed issue being reached. If one of the panels by a majority dissents from the other three, then agreement is not readied. Agreed syllabuses are being drawn up all over the country on that basis. The procedure is very well known and one cantankerous individual is not able to upset the proceedings. But if one of the panels—I use that word for want of a better—dissents, then the position is not unanimous. That is the basis upon which this has always been drawn up, and the insistence on the word "unanimous" is to ensure that anything that is called "agreed" is in fact agreed to by the four parties.

Mr. McEntee

Can we take if that no individual member of these panels can obstruct?

Mr. Ede

He would have to convert the majority of his own panel to his point of view before he could succeed.

Amendment to the Lords Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment to the Lords Amendment made: In Sub-section (3) of the proposed new Clause, leave out from the first "authority" to end of the Sub-section, and insert: (4) A local education authority shall have regard to any unanimous recommendations which may be made to them by any conference convened in accordance with the provisions of the said Seventh Schedule with respect to the expediency of constituting such an advisory council as aforesaid or with respect to the method by which or the terms and conditions upon which members of any such council should be appointed."—[Mr. Butler.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment, as amended."

Professor Gruffydd

I beg to draw attention to the words in the last line but one on page 6:" Methods of teaching." It is proposed here that this council should advise teachers upon methods of teaching. I think this must surely be a new departure altogether in education. I do not suppose it was meant that methods of teaching in the usual sense should be considered, for they cannot be within the purview of a lay body of this sort. Now that teachers are to be trained for this particular purpose, and universities, etc., are setting up departments for training in religious teaching, surely they would not wish a lay body to advise them on methods of teaching? Perhaps the Minister will say something about that?

Mr. Butter

I can only speak again with the permission of the House. If that is given me, I would only say that I have had the opportunity of discussing this with the teachers' representatives and I do not think they entertain the doubts of the hon. Gentleman. I think he can set his mind at rest, that it does not entail any interference with the general attitude adopted either by the Board or the local authorities, towards their teachers. That is certainly not the case. This is purely an Advisory Council, and the words "methods of teaching" are very broad. Even we at the Board issue what have been described as "suggestions," and we do not dare to go any further than that. I do not suppose the Advisory Council will wish to be "more Royalist than the King," and I anticipate that the Advisory Councils will simply give advice and that teachers will be only too glad to cooperate with such councils if the advice is given in the right way. If they gave advice in the wrong way, teachers would be the first to feel that the councils were not fulfilling a useful function. I hope I have assured my hon. Friend that the words "methods of teaching" do not mean to introduce any departure from the general principle adopted by the Board or local authorities.

Mr. R. Morgan (Stourbridge)

I rise to support what the President has said so well. If there had been any objection coming from the teaching profession I think I should have been directly informed. While I want to say there is no objection, as far as I am concerned, from the teachers as a body, I heartily agree with the President, who said that they welcome the very excellent agreed syllabuses and the guidance and suggestions given to them. If these are going to be continued, I am sure there will be no opposition from the teaching profession.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment, as amended," put, and agreed to.