HC Deb 27 January 1944 vol 396 cc958-60
Mr. Hogg

I beg to move, in page 7, line 25, at the end, to insert: and (c) a special lower percentage where it appears to the Minister that a lower percentage other than the standard percentage ought to be assigned on the ground of the exceptionally grave disability of the disabled person which involves exceptional expense adjustment or services to render his employment possible. I do so in the absence of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser). People have different degrees of disability, and it was thought that it might be possible under this Bill for an employer who employs his quota of disabled men, to choose out of that quota and for the purposes of that quota, a number of men who were relatively lightly disabled. The result would be that the most severely disabled would still be as prejudiced as they would have been without the passage of the Bill. The object of the Amendment is to ensure that, where this takes place, it would be open to the Minister to open a second register, including only those who were so severely disabled that they were at a disadvantage as between themselves and ordinarily disabled men.

Mr. Tomlinson

With the object of this Amendment we are in entire sympathy, but there is power to deal with the point, in a later Clause, by which application can be made to the committee for a change in the percentage owing to the fact that exceptional circumstances have arisen. We should regard it as an exceptional circumstance, if arrangements had been made placing very severely disabled persons at a disadvantage. I might point out to the hon. Member that we are quite certain we can deal with the matter under the powers in the Bill.

Mr. J. J. Lawson

I think the principle is a good one, and extremely disabled men should receive consideration, but I am warning the Minister, as a member of a committee which had to deal with this matter, that it is a very difficult thing to work. I do not envy him the job, but I hope he will be successful.

Mr. Hogg

Having regard to the assurance of the Minister that it will be possible to meet the objects of this Amendment by action under another part of the Bill, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Bellenger

I beg to move, in page 7, line 28, after "with," to insert: the national advisory council to be established under this Act and. I rise with some hope that my Amendment will be accepted, in view of the fact that the Minister has accepted some, at least, of the proposals put to him by the other side, and so far we have not had any here. Under Clause 10 (3) the Minister has power to specify, by order, any special percentage, after he has consulted certain people, and, as the Bill is now drawn, he has considerable latitude as to whom he should consult. One of my reasons for supporting the very large powers given to the Minister is that he is setting up a Central Advisory Council and District Committees. I hope he will make them fully representative. If he is setting up these bodies, why should he not consult the Central Advisory Council as well as the organisations of employers and workers on such vital matters? I hope sincerely that the Minister will be able to accept the Amendment.

Rear-Admiral Beamish

I should like to support my hon. Friend opposite, not with any intention of making difficulties for the Minister or the Ministry but simply on the analogy, as I see it, of having something in the nature of a neutral chairman or an umpire in the form of the Advisory Council to be set up under the Bill. It seems to me that something of a balance will be required, and that if the matter is referred solely to employers and workers they may be a very much longer time in arriving at a reasonable and amicable conclusion than if they had the assistance of the Advisory Council.

Mr. Tomlinson

I do not want my hon. Friend to think that we are unsympathetic because we cannot accept the Amendment as it appears on the Paper. It is not intended that the Advisory Council shall be ignored, but we feel that consultation with the employers and workers is not only desirable but essential in view of their particular knowledge of the trades that are being discussed. We feel that if it were necessary to follow the procedure suggested in the Amend- ment it would lead to bottlenecks in the administration. Provision is made for reports from the Advisory Council periodically, and those reports will be on matters which have been discussed with employers and workers in the districts, so that the advice of the Advisory Council will be available to the Minister after the consultation has taken place. At any time it is within their jurisdiction to make representations to him if that which my hon. Friend fears may be possible should actually happen on any occasion. I hope that the hon. Member will accept that explanation.

Mr. Bellenger

I am not entirely satisfied. I quite agree that the Minister should consult employers and workers where he wants to make special regulations. All I ask is that he should not ignore this Advisory Council. As the Bill is drafted, there is no provision that these matters shall be brought to the attention of the Advisory Council before they are decided by the employers' and workers' organisations. The Parliamentary Secretary gave me the impression that he is in sympathy with my Amendment but could not accept it in its present form. I should have great satisfaction if he would consult with me between now and the Report stage with a view, if possible, to incorporating in the Bill something to meet the point I have just made.

Mr. Tomlinson

I will look into the matter, but at this moment I think it is really covered.

Mr. Bellenger

With that assurance I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11 ordered to stand part of Bill.