HC Deb 09 February 1944 vol 396 cc1810-6
Mr. Moelwyn Hughes (Carmarthen)

I beg to move, in page 3, line 37, at the end, to add: and such report shall include an account of the matters upon which each of the councils referred to in the preceding Section have advised the Minister and the action of the Minister taken or proposed to be taken thereon or the replies of the Minister thereto and an account of the questions referred by the Minister to each council and the advice of the council thereon. The Committee has spent some time in considering the constitution and functions of the Advisory Council. Before the Bill reached the Committee stage many of us entertained considerable doubts as to whether the Minister, and those promoting the Bill, really meant anything serious by the set-up of these Advisory Councils. There was some ground for that in so far as, looking through the Bill, one found that, with the exception of Clause 5, there was no further reference to these Advisory Councils at all, and that in the course of the Second Reading Debate the only references to them were few, scattered and rather minor. But I am glad to see, and so are many others, that the Advisory Councils have become a real live issue. The words of the Minister and the arguments put forward were only intelligible on the basis that the Councils were going to form an integral and a very serious part of the set-up of education. Having arrived at the stage where the Committee is seriously interested in the constitution of the Councils and is satified by the assurance of the Minister that he will do his best to secure representation upon them of every proper aspect of the approach to educational advance, and having got to the stage where we have had delimited the functions of these Advisory Councils, it is now proper that we should turn to the question of what they are going to do.

Before I approach that I would hark back to the question of their jurisdiction. The Minister assured the Committee yesterday that, on his interpretation of the words of Clause 4, the functions of the two Councils, acting on their own volition, are not limited to the Mere matters of syllabus and curriculum, and that where proper consideration of these matters might involve consideration of administrative questions it was proper that the Council should consider them. That was as far as he would go. It was an advance and allayed some, but not all, of our doubts as to the efficacy of these Councils. It was, however, an advance which we welcomed. I and some of those who are with me on this Amendment are satisfied that the Councils may well find obstacles in their way of functioning as effectively and freely as we would desire and as, judging from the speeches that have been made to-day, most hon. Members would desire them to function. The Minister said that in these matters he stands on his own legs and will not have any dividing line drawn between him and his advisors. That is a perfectly proper attitude to adopt. He stands on his own legs, but I would remind him that the mosaic upon which he stands has been largely tessellated by others.

We must, in the Bill itself, make sure that the Councils are given an adequate opportunity to function properly. That is why I move the Amendment. It provides that when the Minister makes his annual report to the House, the report shall include four things: first, a statement as to the matters which the Minister has referred to the Councils; second, a report upon the advice tendered to him by the Councils on those matters; third, a report on the matters on which the Councils of their own volition have tendered advice; and, fourth, an account of What the Minister has done in answer to the advice tendered. This is the only way in which the House can ensure that the council is not only properly constituted and has a proper sphere of jurisdiction, but is actually in operation and working. It is the only way in which we can put flesh upon the bones of Clause 4 and in which the House can see that the Councils are what the Minister has promised they shall be, an effective part of the new setup of education. I urge the Amendment on these grounds alone, but there is a further ground which will, I believe, appeal to the Committee. In this Bill we are handing over much wider and more extensive powers to the Minister. Throughout the Bill there are provisions which enable the Minister to act by Order and Regulation. It is right that he should be given these powers, for thus alone can laggard education authorities be kept up to scratch. I do not grudge him the powers. I would even be prepared to give him still further powers. With these powers, however, comes a corresponding duty, a duty which he owes to the House and for which he has to answer to the House. The only way in which the jurisdiction of the Minister over bodies of this kind can be checked is by the Minister telling the House what the Advisory Councils have done, what he has asked them to do, and what he himself has done with regard to their advice.

Mr. R. Morgan (Stourbridge)

Is the hon. and learned Member suggesting that the Minister should place his Orders on the Table so that they might be discussed?

Mr. Hughes

No. I am not now dealing with the Orders and Regulations. That is another facet of the powers given to the Minister. I am dealing with his powers in connection with the functions of the Advisory Council, and I am suggesting that there should be a Parliamentary check over those powers. The only way in what that check can be made is for the Minister's report to be as suggested in the Amendment.

Mr. Colegate (The Wrekin)

I am sorry to hear the arguments which have been used on this Amendment. They seem to me to strike at the whole value of these Advisory Councils. If they are to be useful they should work in intimate and in informal contact with the President of the Board. If every transaction that occurs between the President and his Council is to be made the subject of a formal report, it will largely destroy the value of the Council. It will mean that the Minister and his officials will have to set out formally the subjects they want to refer to the Council, and the Council, knowing that its reply is to be printed and presented to the House, will not be able to reply in an informal and probably much more useful way, but will give what will in effect be a political reply. A position will be developed in which the Minister has a double responsibility. He will have a responsibility to this House, and at the same time he will be strictly accountable to the Council whose proceedings will have to be solemnly printed and reported to the House. I have had a good deal of experience in dealing with committees, boards of directors and other bodies. There is a tremendous difference between a formal body, every action of which has to be reported and commented upon, and a body which works informally, quickly and efficiently in the matters with which it has to deal.

I look for a great advantage to the cause of education from these Advisory Councils, and we want to encourage Ministers to refer questions to them and to get into intimate relations with them so that they, in giving advice on questions remitted to them, can work easily, informally and quickly. If there is to be a shorthand writer present, as there will have to be if the Amendment is carried, to report in detail on what is remitted to the Council and what the Council's opinions are, with probably minority reports and voting on the Council, it will do serious injury to what ought to be one of the most valuable features of the Bill. It will undoubtedly in many cases lead to the Council giving advice on what are not absolutely true grounds. Let us take an example. We all know the enthusiastic spirit which animates the Welsh Members. When a question is discussed by the Council a Welsh member of the Council will feel inclined to give a report on that question, and possibly sign a minority report, which will exhibit to the world the intensive fervour of his Welsh nationalism. The same thing will apply to people connected with rural education or technical education. They will be thinking all the time of their constituents. If a man is put on the Advisory Council and he is considered as representing agriculture or technical education or Welsh interests, he tends to regard his particular interest as his constituents. Therefore he will tend not to give that intimate and sound advice that is usually given in private, but will tend to make his reply, so far as he is concerned, a political or technical demonstration, having regard to the interests which he may be supposed, or regarded, as representing on that Advisory Council.

The Amendment would do two things; it would make invalid a large amount of the private, intimate and valued advice and counsel that such a Council might give. Secondly, it would tend to derogate from the functions of this House. If we found that this Council was not working rightly and any decision taken was not what we wanted, it would be for us to hammer the question out here in the usual constitutional fashion rather than to rely upon the out-of-date—as it would be—report of long ago happenings. In some cases it would be a considerable time since the discussions, and all the time we should know that the discussions so reported would have been placed on the Table, because they would have to be reported. That is not the kind of advice which the Council would give in the most intimate manner to the Minister.

Mr. Ede

I hope that the Committee will not feel it necessary to spend very long on this Amendment in view of the statement which I am going to make. We recognise that there is a hiatus here in the Bill. There should be an arrangement whereby the House of Commons knows what the advisory committees have been doing and how they are composed, but we cannot go as far as the words of the Amendment. I do not know, either, that I would go as far in opposition to the Amendment as the hon. Member for the The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate), whose speech seems to have been too much on the other side. Therefore, I am for once in the safe position of pursuing the via media. We are prepared, if the Committee will accept it, to move an Amendment to add, at the end of the Clause, these words: and of the composition and proceedings of the Central Advisory Councils for education. That will give to the House a knowledge of the persons who have been appointed and, without going into all the details which my hon. Friend behind me has suggested, would have to be given under the terms of the Amendment now under discussion, would enable the House of Commons to be fully informed of the subjects that had been discussed. If there was a desire for further information, a question could be addressed to my right hon. Friend. After all, we do desire that, on a good many matters, the association between the Board and the Advisory Councils shall be of the informal character indicated by my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin, but if we were tied by the very exacting words of the Amendment we might, on occasion, be handicapped in getting that advice which would be most useful to us and to the education system of the country. I hope that my hon. Friend will feel that we have met the spirit of his Amendment in a way which implies that the annual Report shall contain, in addition to a statement of what the Board itself has been doing, a statement of the persons who have been appointed, any variation in the personnel of the Councils during the year and a general report of their proceedings, so that the House shall be able to feel that the Councils have become a really live partner in the central administration of education in this country.

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

I need hardly say that I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary has been able to meet us in the spirit of the Amendment which I moved. Indeed, in one way, and I freely confess it, the concession is better than the Amendment, which was very important, having regard to past experience of the consultative committee, where matters, generally speaking, were very formally put to them and considered at great length. I am glad to think that the Parliamentary Secretary is now envisaging that these Advisory Councils shall not only consider formal matters to be the proper subject of report but shall be consulted informally also. Having received that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In page 3, line 37, at the end, insert: and of the composition and proceedings of the Central Advisory Councils for edlication."—[Mr. Ede.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Gallacher

Two words of advice to the Minister, who was not in the Committee when the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate) was speaking. The hon. Member gave us a very clear exposure of the Tory mind: one thing in private and another thing in public. I advise the Minister at all costs to keep the Tories off the Advisory Councils.

Mr. Colegate

I resist that recommendation.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.