HC Deb 01 February 1944 vol 396 cc1237-46

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]

Mr. Kendall (Grantham)

I first raised the question of chimney-sweeps because of the numerous letters of complaints I was getting from my constituents. I subsequently had an appeal from an old gentleman asking whether his son, a skilled chimney-sweep, could be got out of the Army on deferment. I appealed to the War Office, who told me they would give sympathetic consideration to an appeal, if it were supported by some responsible Minister. At the suggestion of the War Office, I wrote numerous letters to the Ministry of Health, which I thought was the proper authority. The Ministry of Health refused to accept that responsibility. I wrote to the Minister of Home Security and he said that it was not the job of his Ministry to take that responsibility, except so far as it concerned the possible outbreak of fire. After further correspondence, the Ministry of Home Security wrote me that they had considered the whole position in relation to other Ministries, and were now prepared to be the sponsoring Ministry. I subsequently got another letter stating that they could not recommend the release of this young man from the Army, because there were already nine chimney-sweeps in Grantham, four full-time and five part-time.

When I got that letter, I started to investigate the statement by going around and checking up, first of all on the four skilled chimney-sweeps. I thought I should probably find vigorous, skilled men, doing a first-class job of work in this very old town. What did I find? The first man named in the list of the Ministry of Home Security was an old gentleman of 78 years of age. I thought that the next would be a bit younger and have a lot of work to put in, in an old town like Grantham, where chimneys are all sorts of shapes. I found that he was 60 years of age and still doing a bit of a job as a chimney-sweep. He was probably old enough to be a candidate for a by-election. The next one I checked up on was another elderly gentleman, of 75 years of age. Those were three of the full-time chimney-sweeps. The last was another elderly gentleman of 60 years of age with acute rheumatoid arthritis. He was doing his best, but it was not a very big best for a town with 6,000 houses with approximately 24,000 chimneys.

The next check-up was on the five part-time chimney-sweeps. One of them works a few hours at night time, when he happens to be on day shifts, which takes place only every two weeks. He is averaging about two chimneys a day. This man works in the factory. There is another man who calls himself a full time Jehovah's Witness. He claims to be doing about four chimneys a day. Then there is another man who is a full time maltster. He is doing two or three chimneys a day. Then there is another one who is a full time stoker at the local gas works and he does a few chimneys occasionally. I think he is the one who told me—I have no notes with me so I speak from memory—that between his job and chimney sweeping the whole thing was just killing him and he would have to quit anyway. The last one is a full time employee of the L.N.E.R. They are the total chimney sweeps to take care of Grantham and district, not only the houses, but hospitals and the very many schools. I checked with the local N.F.S. I thought it only right and proper to do so in presenting this case, to see whether there had been more outbreaks of fire in the last 12 months than had previously occurred. They told me there had not been more outbreaks of fire in the last 12 months in comparison with the previous corresponding period. Strangely enough in the last two or three weeks there have been one or two fires directly due to unswept chimneys.

The young man for whom I am appealing is a very young man, it is true. He is fully skilled and is batman to an officer in the Army. I feel we have a really good case to try and get into Grantham one skilled chimney sweep, because out of all these full-timers and part-timers I have mentioned, there is only one who is a fully skilled chimney sweep. That is the old man of 60 who suffers from acute rheumatoid arthritis. There is one thing which I am very happy to say has come out of the long correspondence I have had with the various Ministries. That is that at last the chimney sweeps of this country have a sponsoring Minister now, the Minister of Home Security. In appealing to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour to give his very sympathetic consideration to the case of getting this young man out of the Army it is because I feel, quite logically I believe, that fire prevention, or as far as we can go in getting an additional skilled man into the town who could do probably 60 to 80 chimneys a week, is doing a service of more national importance than cleaning the buttons and shoes of the officer under whom he serves. This young chap has had a very good and quite long war record. He went through Narvik, he went through Dunkirk—still presumably polishing the buttons. I believe he is now back in this country so there should be no trouble about getting him home.

I suggest very strongly to the Minister that he should sponsor at least getting this young man out of the Army on deferment until we see what other methods can be taken, or whether or not from another part of England we can get skilled chimney sweeps older, but not quite as old as some of those we have at the present time. We are all grateful to these part-timers and these old men who are doing their darnedest to give us a helping hand in a situation which might be grave for a very old town like Grantham. I wish to take this opportunity of thanking the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour for coming along for this Adjournment when I only gave him 15 minutes notice.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. McCorquodale)

The hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) had such bad luck the other night, after having sat until a very late hour in order to get in on the Adjournment on the subject of chimney sweeps, that I am very glad that he has been able to raise his point now, although it has caused me some embarrassment, because I sent my papers to the Department to have some inquiries made, and have not been able to get them back in time. Therefore, I apologise beforehand for the possibly sketchy reply I shall make to the hon. Member. The House will have been interested in his story of the grand old chimney sweeps of Grantham: aged 78, 76, and I forget the other ages. I have no corroborative evidence of their ages, but I have some evidence of how many chimneys they are supposed to be sweeping, and my information is that they are doing very well. I would like, for a moment, to explain why I am answering in this short Debate. First, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security is, unfortunately, laid up; otherwise she would have been here. [An HON. MEMBER: "She was here to-day."] Well, she was laid up the other day, when this matter was to have been raised, and as this was as much the concern of the Ministry of Labour as that of the Ministry of Home Security, and, as the hon. Lady was laid up I agreed to take it.

There seem to be two points. The first is the general responsibility for fires and fire prevention. In all that, as the hon. Member mentioned, the Ministry of Home Security have agreed to act as the sponsoring Department for the deferment and release of chimney sweeps. But I would like to explain further, because a good many Members of Parliament write to me on this subject, the machinery for the release of men from the Forces. I know it has been mentioned before, and I apologise to those Members who already know about it. The Service Departments insist that all applications for release from the Forces on grounds of national interest must be sponsored by the Government Department concerned with the activities or businesses of the firms which employ the men. In this case, the Ministry of Home Security have agreed to sponsor these people. If the sponsoring Department are satisfied that release would be justified, from their point of view, in the national interest they then make application in the normal manner, and the case is referred to the Ministry of Labour and National Service. If we are not completely satisfied immediately that the release is justified, we refer it to our appropriate machinery in the region—usually the local man-power board—for investigation and report, having regard to the local circumstances, the supply of that particular class of labour, and whether the release of the individual Service man is desirable. Then we make a recommendation to the Service Department concerned. It is for that Department, as it must be, to make the final decision on whether the soldier, sailor or airman is released.

In this case, the Ministry of Home Security asked us to look into the case of this young man. According to information supplied by the hon. Member for Grantham, the man is something like 23 years of age, an active young man in His Majesty's Forces, well trained—he has been in since the beginning of the war—and, prima-facie, very much needed by the Army at the present time. Therefore, it would have to be an overwhelmingly strong case of national importance before the release of that man could be requested from the Forces.

We, therefore, made a detailed investigation of the situation in Grantham, and I give the House the information that was provided for me. There are four full-time and five part-time chimney sweeps known to be operating at the present time. We have endeavoured to make an estimate of the importance of the Smiths' business to the area by reference to the amount of work done by him and through other chimney sweeps included in the scope of the inquiry, and, with the information with which I am provided from our local people, it appears that approximately 250 chimneys are being swept weekly, of which about one-fifth are done by the father of the young man concerned—the gentleman suffering from this chronic ill-health. We are informed that there is no evidence of hardship in the area caused by this shortage of chimney sweeps. In fact, two of the full-time chimney sweeps have told us they could do more work if they could get it. We did look, where we could and where they were willing to show them to us, at the appointment books, where they are kept, and it appears that orders have to be booked about one week in advance. There does not seem to be any indication of unreasonable delay in carrying out the work, though it is not possible to do the chimney sweeping in the early morning, as most housewives prefer and as used to be the case in peace-time. It is interesting to note, though it is not a complete indication of the position in Grantham, that one of the chimney sweeps was spending his own money advertising as recently as last month in the local Grantham paper, for more customers. He may, of course, have been endeavouring to build up good will for the future.

My information, therefore, does not entirely coincide with the information of the hon. Member for Grantham, and, as he is the Member for the place in question, with his local first-hand opportunities of getting information, I do not think I should turn down out of hand the points he raises, and therefore I am proposing—and indeed, after he had written to me and he missed the Adjournment the other night, I had already put in train—a further investigation to check up the facts supplied to us as against the points raised by the hon. Member, and I will certainly look into the question when a further report reaches me. But, even so, it is a very big request to make to the Army that they should release a fit young man of 23 years who has been in the Army four years and is fully trained, and it may well be that other steps would have to be taken, if the shortage is proved, to relieve the situation so far as may be.

There is a final word I would like to say as a general observation. The Minister of Home Security tells me that just recently—and it accords with the information which the hon. Member for Grantham has given us—the numbers of chimney fires have tended to rise, although there is no alarming increase. Nevertheless, it does appear that there has been a tendency in the last month or so for the number of fires to rise and the Minister asks me to say that he is watching the point, and he will consider, whenever there is any definite proof, what action should be taken in the national interest. I assure the House and the hon. Member that we at the Ministry of Labour will keep such points under consideration, because it is obviously desirable that these fires should be stopped, although I understand that the bulk of chimney fires do not in fact, cause fires of any magnitude or danger.

Mr. Driberg (Maldon)

Did the hon. Gentleman actually check up with the War Office on the nature of the duties on which the man is engaged in the Army, as alleged by the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall), and, as a general principle, is it possible for the Ministry of Labour to ask that question of a Service Department?

Mr. McCorquodale

No, Sir. The hon. Member has got the position a little out of perspective. We represent to the War Office or the Admiralty, or the Air Force, if a sponsoring Department passes it on to us, and we have checked it up, as to whether we think the national interest requires, if possible, the man to be released. It comes up before the release committee, which happens to sit in my Department, and upon which the Service Departments are represented, and at that release committee the decision is taken one way or the other, the Service Department having always the right of veto. The nature of the employment in the Forces of a man is entirely a matter for the Forces, and they might veto our proposal on the respective value of the man to them or might say, "We will let you have that man more easily because he is really of less advantage to us." With regard to the man being a batman, I do not know the particular case at all, but, in general, where infantry officers go into the front line and into battle I have always understood that their batmen play a vital part in going in with them and in communications and messages. It is not correct to consider a batman as not being a fighting unit.

Mr. Granville (Eye)

We have all had cases of this sort and I am glad that my hon. Friend has dealt with them in a general way. But what happens if the Ministry of Labour say, "This man is vitally needed for safety and security against fire in the town of Grantham" and the report goes to the War Office or the Army authority and they say, "Yes, but we think that he is doing what we consider to be an important job in the Army." What happens in a case of that kind? Who comes in as referee, or whose decision is final?

Mr. McCorquodale

The hon. Member puts a hypothetical case and hypothetical cases are always difficult to answer. As far as I know, the position which he envisages has not yet arisen. The release committee which sits in the Department has always come to a conclusion one way or another, either to release the man or not, without any reference further. It all works smoothly.

Mr. Granville

Can my hon. Friend say whether that recommendation was made in this case? If the Ministry of Labour, say that a man is very important, does this case go forward?

Mr. McCorquodale

It goes to the release committee, and if the release committee, on which the Services are represented as well as the Department, agree, and they have the information as to the use of the man for the Forces, which we have not considered up to then, and if the release committee consider that the man should be released temporarily or permanently, he gets release.

Mr. W. J. Brown (Rugby)

We shall all sympathise with the Joint Parliamentary Secretary in his reply, because it is obvious he has not had anything but a very brief reference, and I am not at all disposed to take what he has said as a final reply to the representations made by the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Kendall). I would point out to the hon. Member that he under-stated his case. Not only are fires increasing in chimneys in Grantham in a general way, but his chimney was on fire last night, and this, Sir, is a matter of grave concern to me, because I enjoy the hospitality of the hon. Member for Grantham, and anything that interferes with the continuance and adequacy of that hospitality would obviously be a matter of great concern to me. However, it must be admitted that the hon. Member for Grantham has made a pretty strong case.

Mr. McCorquodale

May I interrupt? Last night was particularly mild, and I rather regret there was a fire burning in the house of the hon. Member for Grantham at all owing to the shortage of fuel.

Mr. Brown

But the hon. Member for Grantham has spent a great deal of his time in America, where heating systems are adequate, and obviously needs more coal than those of us who have been brought up on this island and inured to hardship from our earliest days. But my hon. Friend makes a strong case that he is left with the cohorts of the aged to sweep the chimneys of Grantham. He begs for the release of one young man, only one. He is like the prophet in the Old Testament, he demands only one righteous man, and he begs the Minister to release this young man. What is the answer? The answer is that this young man is 23. That is a misfortune we have all passed through in our time, but the gravamen of this matter is not the man's age but what he is doing. Is it the case that this boy is polishing buttons? If so, I submit that he is better employed in polishing chimneys. We have had no answer on that point at all, and, moreover, it appears there will be no answer, because the Ministry of Labour, from what the Parliamentary Secretary has said to-night, accepts the view of the Service Departments as to whether a man should be released or not. The view of a Service Department is well known: "Having got 'em, don't let 'em go; what we have we hold." If the Minister of Labour accepts what the Service Department says as the last word, there is no hope of the release of this young man from his ignominious and laborious task of polishing buttons. I think the Minister must go further.

I know in my own experience of literally thousands of men in the Armed Forces of this country who are doing work which could just as well be done by civilian labour, and whenever I have had the opportunity in this House of pointing that out, on the Air Estimates, the Army Estimates and so on, I have never held back. I tell the hon. Gentleman, and I tell the Government, that you can get a couple of divisions of men from out of the Army put into civilian life, doing much more valuable work than they are doing at the moment, and that you can save the Exchequer literally millions upon millions of pounds a year. I am not disposed to dismiss this case on the argument that this young man is only 23. I would like to know what he is doing. It is the Minister of Labour who, after all, rounds us up, and, if he rounds us up he ought to accept the responsibility of seeing that we are properly employed, and a mere ipse dixit on the part of the War Office is not adequate to explain that. Therefore, I hope he will go further into this matter, so that he will either release this young man or take such other steps as will put the matter right; and, above all, see to it that nothing whatever is allowed to interfere with the magnificent: hospitality that I receive from my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham.

Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.