HC Deb 21 December 1944 vol 406 cc1942-3
59. Sir J. Mellor

asked the Minister of Education whether, failing agreement with the secondary associations represented on the Burnham Committee, he will refrain from making an Order under Section 89 of the Education Act, determining graduate allowances, training additions and allowances for special posts, until after he has consulted the House of Commons.

Mr. Butler

When the Burnham Committee comes to submit scales of remuneration for teachers to me the information will be available to hon. Members, and it will then be open to my hon. Friend to take such action as he thinks fit to secure their consideration by this House. I would, however, remind him that the functions of the Minister under Section 89 of the Education Act, 1944, are limited to approving or disapproving the scales of remuneration submitted to him by the Burnham Committee and, if he approves them, to making an order requiring local education authorities to remunerate teachers in accordance with those scales. It was made quite clear when the Clause, which is now Section 89, was introduced in another place that it was so drafted as to leave no responsibility with the Minister for framing the scales or amending scales submitted to him.

Mr. Cove

May I now ask the right hon. Gentleman, if the House interferes in the manner suggested by the Question, whether it would not defeat the very purpose of the Section mentioned, and also destroy the very negotiating power that he himself has set up under the Act? Would it not destroy the Burnham Committee?

Mr. Butler

I do not think it is quite as simple as that. The important thing is that I shall take my decision as laid down by the Statute. I cannot regulate the proceedings of the House.

Sir J. Mellor

As my right hon. Friend abolished the secondary Burnham Committee, and the secondary teachers now find themselves in a small minority in the new general Burnham Committee, is it right that the secondary teachers should have their fate largely determined——

Mr. Speaker

That is an argument and not a question. Mr Lindsay.

Sir J. Mellor

May I——

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Gentleman will ask his question properly, and not make an argument, it is quite all right.

Sir J. Mellor

Is it right that the secondary teachers should have their fate decided by the National Union of Teachers to which they do not belong?

Mr. Butler

A short answer to my hon. Friend is that "secondary" has a new application under the Education Act, 1944, and implies every form of secondary education that will be given. People will have to get accustomed to that definition.

Miss Rathbone

Will my right hon. Friend tell us how soon after the Recess he is likely to be able to make a statement on this question on which, as he knows, there is extremely widespread anxiety among secondary teachers, and especially among university graduates?

Mr. Butler

I am, of course, aware of this anxiety, to which every attention naturally ought to be paid, but I cannot regulate the proceedings of this House which are in the hands of hon. Members and should be arranged through the ordinary channels.