HC Deb 13 December 1944 vol 406 cc1273-9

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £9,750, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945, for sundry Dominion services, including certain grants in aid, and for expenditure in connection with ex-Service men in Eire, and for a grant in aid to Eire in respect of compensation to transferred officers.

The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Emrys-Evans)

This money is asked for in order to provide £9,000 for the Empire Societies War Hospitality Committee. The money is required, in particular, for capital expenditure as the result of the destruction of one of their clubs, belonging to the Victoria League, by enemy action, and also to the destruction of the annexe to another. It is also required for the maintenance of clubs elsewhere and the organisation of hospitality for Dominion exprisoners-of-war pending transhipment to their home countries. The £750 for the Shamrock Club is required for a club which was organised especially for Irishmen, both from Eire and Northern Ireland, serving in the United Kingdom Forces. Owing to the precise terms of the grant in aid, it is not possible to include it in the £9,000. This club, as I have said, provides only for Irishmen who are serving in the United Kingdom Forces and not those serving in the Dominion Forces, and, therefore, it will have to be dealt with separately. I hope the Committee will agree to grant these sums.

Mr. Creech Jones (Shipley)

I do not want to detain the Committee for more than a few minutes, but I would like to be informed—if it is at all possible—what are the bodies to whom this money will be voted, who is responsible for their management, and what clubs are actually involved. Further, I would like to ask, whether the time has not come for the Dominions Office, with the Colonial Office, to consider seriously whether, as this city is the centre of the Commonwealth of Nations and the Empire, something much more dignified should be done in respect of providing accommodation and hospitality for visitors from the Dominions, whether they be ex-Servicemen or ex-war prisoners, or whatever they may be. Could there not be some great dignified building in keeping with the nation's Imperial faith which has been so often expressed here in years gone by, particularly by Members on the other side of the Committee? This rather piecemeal way in which hospitality is handled seems to be so unsatisfactory for a nation of the dignity of Great Britain. I would like to know whether some consideration has been given to that problem instead of the Dominions and Colonial Offices having, from time to time, to come to this House for small payments to meet deficiencies here or to meet some disaster which may have overtaken a club. Let this sort of thing be lifted away from charity and put into a position which is dignified, adequate and ample.

12.45 p.m.

Sir Patrick Hannon (Birmingham, Moseley)

I am particularly gratified that this Vote embodies a contribution to the Shamrock Club, which has been organised in this city for the entertainment of Irishmen in any of the Defence Services who come here from Southern Ireland. This Club was founded by a number of persons who were pleased to give encouragement to people in Southern Ireland to place their services at the disposal of His Majesty's Government in defence of the great principles for which this war is being fought. I would like to pay a compliment, in supporting the Vote, to Lady Simon for her very active interest in the promotion of this Club. She has taken particular care from time to time to visit the Club and has taken an interest in the welfare of the various members of all the Services who, from time to time, are entertained at the Club. May I perhaps transgress the Rules of Order and say that I think this Club is an example of what has been done by Irish men and women entirely detached from political considerations in this country in support of the great cause of liberty for which we are fighting to-day. I do not know whether the Under-Secretary can say how many people from Southern Ireland and Eire are serving in the Navy, the Army and the Air Forces. The last figure that I saw——

The Chairman rose——

Sir P. Hannon

I am sorry, Major Milner. I am afraid I am infringing the Rules of Order in putting that point to the Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions, but anybody visiting that club will see evidence of the patriotism and devotion of the people of Southern Ireland fighting in our Services in all parts of the world, and will realise that their entertainment and welfare are looked after by the people responsible for this club. I would like, as an Irishman, to say how grateful I am to the Dominions Office for the interest they have taken in this club and how proud I am of the recognition extended by the generosity of so many people in this country, apart altogether from Parliament, who have contributed in some way to the welfare of men who have come from all parts of Ireland and are giving their services in the defence of a great cause.

Commander King-Hall (Ormskirk)

On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman. Would it be better for the Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions to answer the important question which has just been put? Until we know the figures it is difficult to know whether the accommodation at the Shamrock Club is adequate to meet the case.

The Chairman

I understand that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Moseley (Sir P. Hannon) asked the number of Irishmen in the Forces. I do not think that that would be in Order on this Vote, but it would be in Order to ask what is the membership of the club.

Sir P. Hannon

Would it be in Order to ask whether it was about 300,000 altogether?

The Chairman

I do not think that it would be in Order. The hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will be able to give some indication of the membership of the Club and some idea might be gathered from that. It certainly is not relevant on this Vote to say how many Irishmen are in the Armed Forces.

Mr. Butcher (Holland with Boston)

The Under-Secretary of State will be gratified with the way that the Supplementary Estimate has been received so far, and I will add nothing to impair the harmony of the Committee. I share the view of the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Creech Jones) that it is wise that we should overhaul from time to time the arrangements that are made for entertainment and hospitality in this capital city for those visiting us from the Dominions. I have a feeling, however, from conversations with men from the Dominions, that they appreciate the variety of clubs and bodies which at the moment have the honour of entertaining them. Perhaps on this matter the Under-Secretary will be able to tell us whether he has been in consultation with the High Commissioners for the Dominions with regard to the entertainment of their Service members. The Secretary of State for the Colonies promises to come back to the House if his Supplementary Vote is not adequate, and I hope that we may have a similar assurance from the Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions, because, at the same time as we are granting this money, preparations are being made in Australia to receive and to entertain the large number of men who will presently be moved to that part of the world.

Captain Duncan (Kensington, North)

I do not want to say anything against the Shamrock Club but, having had a little experience of this sort of thing during the war, I should like to make certain that this money is being properly spent. I know, as my hon. Friend the Member for Moseley (Sir P. Hannon) has said, what good work Lady Simon has done as President of the Club. Here is a grant of £750 to help to run it. Are the Government going to be represented on the Committee which runs the Club? If public money is to be spent it would seem fair to ask whether the Government can make some arrangements to see that the Club is properly run, and also for some representation on the Committee. This is the first time, speaking subject to correction, that this sort of grant has been given, and those of us who are Scotsmen, and I expect there are some Welshmen here, prick up our ears when we see Government money going to an Irish club when the Scots and the Welsh have to pay for the upkeep of their own clubs; but I will not press that matter any further. If we can regard this as a precedent, we shall be delighted to know it, and we shall make our own arrrangements accordingly. Have the Government of Northern Ireland or the Government of Eire contributed anything to this club? The Dominion clubs are either run wholly or partly from the Dominions Office. The Beaver Club is run by Canadians, partly by Canadian money and partly by private Canadian help. To what extent is the Shamrock Club run by Government money from Northern Ireland or Eire? It is only fair that the Irish Governments should make some contribution towards their citizens' comfort while on leave in London. If my hon. Friend can give me a reply to this question, I shall be obliged.

Mr. Emrys-Evans

The hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Creech Jones) asked how this money was spent and through what organisation. When the war broke out the Empire Societies War Hospitality Committee was set up under Lord Milne, and the societies involved were the Royal Empire Society, the Victoria League and the Overseas League. All the accounts of the money which the Empire Societies War Hospitality Committee have received are open to the Dominions Office, and as far as the actual societies are concerned, the Dominions Office can, if they desire, see their accounts, but they act entirely through the Empire Societies War Hospitality Committee. The hon. Member also said that he hoped there would be a building set up in London which was consonant with the dignity of the Empire. That is a question for the future. I think the Committee will realise in dealing with these matters we had to improvise when the war broke out and to build up this organisation, which has been a very successful one.

The hon. Member for Moseley (Sir P. Hannon) asked how many Irishmen were actually serving in His Majesty's Forces. That is a question upon which we have never been able to obtain precise information. It is very difficult to give figures at all, and I would not like to make any kind of estimate. He asked what was the accommodation or membership of the Shamrock Club. It is not possible to say what is the actual membership—it is open to all Irishmen serving in United Kingdom Forces—but the number of beds in the club is 35. The hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Butcher) asked whether we were in touch with the High Commissioners with regard to hospitality. We are always in constant touch with the High Commissioners on these subjects. The hon. and gallant Member for North Kensington (Captain Duncan) asked whether the Government of Northern Ireland or the Government of Eire subscribed to the Shamrock Club. No funds are given by any Government except His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the sum is confined to the amount in this Estimate. There is no actual representative of the Government on the committee, but we are satisfied that the committee are spending the money satisfactorily. I think the hon. and gallant Member was under some misapprehension with regard to Dominions clubs. They are different from the clubs dealt with in this Supplementary Estimate, which are organised in this country, and the Dominions do not subscribe to them in any way. The Dominions clubs to which he referred are entirely run by the various Dominions concerned. No funds from His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are applied to these clubs or to the Beaver Club, which is confined entirely to Canadians.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved: That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £9,750 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945, for sundry Dominion services including certain Grants in Aid and for expenditure in connection with ex-Servicemen in Eire, and for a Grant in Aid to Eire in respect of compensation to transferred officers.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.