HC Deb 06 April 1944 vol 398 cc2203-10
Mr. De la Bère (Evesham)

I wish to raise the question of meter rents in respect of electricity and gas supplies. I am quite aware that on the Adjournment it is not permissible for a Member to mention legislation or to deal with matters which would require legislation, and I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I shall not offend in that respect. At an earlier stage today I put a Question to the Minister of Fuel and Power asking whether it was possible for him to give further consideration to inducing gas and electricity companies to let one and the same man read both the gas and the electricity meters. The reply was that the matter had been considered twice and was found not to be possible. When anything to do with electricity or gas comes up and there is an inquiry, it always ends in the same way. Whatever is asked for is never found possible.

Over and over again, the question of meter rents has been raised by a number of Members in this House, apart from myself. The pressure of public opinion is enormous. After I had asked a Question a few weeks ago, the matter was taken up by one Sunday newspaper, one weekly newspaper, two daily newspapers and several newspapers in the provinces and the result was many thousands of letters to me, all saying the same thing, which was that it is time these meter rents ended because people have paid for their meters over and over again. Let us just see what the cost of a meter is. Roughly speaking, the cost of an electricity meter of English make, installed, is in the neighbourhood of 30s. What does the consumer and householder pay in rents for that meter? He has to pay 2s. 6d. each quarter or 10s. a year. Perhaps more, but very seldom less. It means that in a period of 15 years that particular meter has been purchased five times in the rents that have been charged, and yet many of these meters are in use for 20 years and have been paid for five or six times over. No wonder the pressure of public opinion is great; but the Government have failed to comprehend it.

All that the Government do is, when these matters are brought up, to consult the interests concerned, and they are told every time: "It is not possible." The Ministry of Fuel and Power are not responsible for this situation because it has gone on for many years and they have not been dealing with it. Other Ministers have been dealing with the matter. If the Ministry of Fuel and Power prove to be sympathetic as I believe they are, I feel that there is a possibility that the matter will be shifted to some other Minister and come under his purview. Unless pressure of public opinion really asserts itself, most of these interests, who have for so long done so well out of meter rents, will be allowed to continue making very large sums each year. We have only to examine the balance sheets of some of these undertakings to find that they have made very large sums. You find large amounts set aside in respect of "meter rents and other charges." I cannot separate them; we are not meant to separate them, but it is quite clear that an enormous revenue is derived from meter rents. I believe there are about 8,000,000 electricity consumers in the country, and possibly more. They all have meters and nearly all the meters are charged for by a meter rent. The sum is easy to work out. It shows that a sum of several million pounds is being paid each year in the way of meter rents to electricity undertakings.

Are there any enlightened electricity undertakings? Fortunately there are, and I propose to give some particulars. One is the Spalding Urban District Council, which has sent me a beautiful pink sheet of paper to-day. The first thing that catches my eye is the announcement "No meter rents," to which I say "Hear, hear." That is not the only enlightened thing being done by the Spalding Urban District Council. Their gas rates are reasonable and their all-in tariff is reasonable. This shows what can be done. Unfortunately, undertakings who behave in this way are a very small minority. The thing of which I am complaining goes on year after year and huge sums are being taken from the public. I am not against private enterprise, and this speech is not an attack on private enterprise at all, but it is clear that if private enterprise cannot keep its house in order it is inviting other people who do not favour private enterprise to come in and take action which private enterprise will not like. I hope therefore that, as a result of my raising this matter on the Floor of the House, these undertakings, who set out to render valuable service to the public, will see the necessity of taking some action such as I suggest about meter rents, and doing something which really will meet the public demand.

This is not a matter of temporary interest which will soon die out. The interest which the public has had in the question of meter rents has gone on for many years, and indignation has grown on the subject. When the Minister gets up to reply, as I know he will in a short while, I hope he will confirm what I say, by showing that he is aware of the very wide public feeling there is that something should be done about these meters. I do not think it is necessary for me to detain the House by reading long letters which I have received from various districts, all asking for action in the same direction. They all insist that their meters are old and have been paid for over and over again. They thank me from the bottom of their hearts for ventilating this matter. What I have tried to do in this very short speech is to ask, in all seriousness, that the Ministry of Fuel and Power should take this matter up really seriously, make the necessary investigation and inquiry and then see that those who have suffered for so long receive justice and a square deal at long last from the undertakings by whom they are supplied with electricity and gas. Having said these few words, I will now give an opportunity for hon. Members to ventilate their views on this all-important domestic matter.

Mr. McEntee (Walthamstow, West)

I do not want to delay the House too long on this matter, which may appear rather small, but I agree with the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) that it is considered a matter of serious importance by a very large number of ordinary household consumers of electricity and gas. I have not brought any figures, but I know that it must be the experience of many people that there are bitter complaints about the continuous charge made over long periods of years for meters. If one goes into an ordinary shop and undertakes a hire purchase transaction, there comes a time when the payments end and the article becomes your property, but with gas and electricity meters you just go on paying for ever a very excessive charge, far more than the articles are worth.

The consequence is that the public generally have a feeling of bitterness against the authorities who supply these meters, and the feeling is growing. The Government ought to take some steps, and if they cannot abolish meter rents altogether they ought to see that those rents are considerably reduced. I would congratulate the hon. Member for raising this matter, which is of considerable interest to the great mass of the people who cannot afford to continue to pay these charges.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Tom Smith)

I do not think that anybody will complain that the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) has raised this question. He has taken a very keen interest in the matter for a number of years. I recall quite clearly that just before the war, he asked permission to bring in a three Clause Bill under the Ten Minute Rule, to deal with this very matter. It is true that there have been and are complaints about meter rents. I would point out that there is no uniformity with regard to the meter rent position. There are three or four systems. There is the system under which rent is charged for the meter, another system where there is a two-part tariff, and then there is a pre-payment system. I am told that, generally speaking, where there is a two-part tariff there is no separate meter rent. In my part of the world there are no separate rents for meters; there is a tariff based on the rateable value of the premises and beyond that one pays so much per unit consumed. Some undertakings try to put the cost of all these things into the charge for either the gas or electricity supplied. I am pointing out that there is no uniformity.

While I do want to assure my hon. Friend that we are certainly very sympathetic indeed towards what he has suggested, I would recall that when he put down at the end of February his Question on this matter and subsequently gave notice to raise the matter on the Adjournment, he did suggest a remedy in the Question. His suggestion was that after paying rent for the meter for a number of years the meter should become the property of the consumer or the tenant. I can see one or two difficulties there. Anyone acquainted with the gas industry, in particular, knows that from the early part of the 19th century there has been a large amount of legislation of a very complicated character dealing with it. I am told that in the early days of the use of gas for lighting purposes the meter was the property of the occupier or the consumer, and that it was owing to the difficulties that were encountered that it was found necessary to change the law and to give those undertakings a right to charge a meter rent. It would be pretty awkward and produce some complications if, after paying rent for a meter for seven or ten years, the meter became the property of the consumer and he had to move to another part of the country. Would he take his meter with him.

Mr. McEntee

Does he not do that with his gas stove.

Mr. Smith

Certainly, but if he took his existing electricity meter to certain parts of the country he might find there was a difference in the voltage there. There is no uniformity of voltage throughout the country. I am only pointing out that the remedy suggested, namely, that the consumer should own the meter, is not perhaps the best way of dealing with the matter.

Mr. De la Bère

I really do not think there will be any very great difficulty. After a period of years a consumer who had paid for the meter should have an agreement that the meter should be taken back by the company.

Mr. Smith

I am coming to possible ways out of the difficulty. It may be that after meter rent had been paid for a period the meter rent could be stopped altogether, or it could be scaled down. There are a hundred and one different ways of tackling the problem. Some of the undertakings claim that the rent charged for the meter covers other things besides the meter—the installing of it and overhauling and repairing of it. What I can say, to my hon. Friend quite sincerely is this. Gas and electricity have only been dealt with by the Ministry of Fuel and Power since that Ministry was set up in June, 1942. Before that they came largely under the Board of Trade, I believe. My right hon. and gallant Friend is very sympathetic towards the point raised by the hon. Member for Evesham, and we know there is some justification for his complaint. The Minister is considering a good many aspects of the problem of the distribution of gas and electricity, and while he cannot at the moment promise any separate legislation to deal with this particular point I can give my hon. Friend and the House a guarantee that when we are considering other questions relating to distribution this point will not be forgotten.

Mr. De la Bère

He understands the importance of uniformity throughout the country. It is all important.

Mr. Smith

Although uniformity does not come within the purview of my hon. Friend's complaint, anybody who has had anything to do with gas and electricity knows that in future developments there must certainly be uniformity.

Mr. Glenvil Hall (Colne Valley)

I, for one, feel dissatisfied with what my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has said. I realise that it would be difficult to allow the tenant or owner of a house who is paying rental for a meter to become eventually the owner of the meter. That would raise all sorts of difficulties in addition to those which have been mentioned. For one thing, if the meter were his property he could walk off with it, and the supplier of the current might never know how much had been used; and there are other difficulties of that kind. But is it not obvious that the way out is not to charge a meter rent at all? After all, it is for the advantage of the supplier that a meter should be there. He does not charge for the piping or the wiring, and why, therefore, should he charge for the small box which indicates how much has been used? Meters are very cheap to make; they cost very little. Why should it be necessary to go a long way round to right an injustice which ought to have been righted long ago and can be righted simply by not allowing a charge to be made for the meter?

Mr. Smith

I appreciate the point which the hon. Member has made. I only mentioned the suggestion that the tenant should own the meter because that was the suggestion in the Question put by the hon. Member for Evesham, and it was my impish imagination which saw the possibilities of a few humorous situations arising. Gas legislation is not simple. In the hundreds of Acts relating to gas undertakings all sorts of provisions have been laid down, and to deal with the problem is not so simple as would appear on the surface. I gave a very sympathetic assurance to my hon. Friend, because I am personally interested in this matter apart from the fact that it concerns the Ministry of Fuel and Power. I have given an assurance that in considering other questions in relation to the distribution of gas and electricity my right hon. and gallant Friend will consider this problem as part of the general question, but I could not offer any hope at the moment of separate legislation for dealing with it. I told my hon. Friend weeks ago that we are sympathetic towards him, but there is no uniformity of practice in the distribution of either electricity or gas, and I can only repeat that in considering the whole question we will not leave out of account the complaint which he has so persistently brought forward.

Mr. Woods (Finsbury)

I cannot help feeling that the reply of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary rather stultifies Parliament. There may be, as he says, a hundred and one different ways of dealing with this matter, but surely out of all those there is one way which is the most satisfactory, and that has already been suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Come Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall). The hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) has mentioned, and cheered, the, fact that a few concerns do the sensible thing and charge no meter rents, and it would be quite simple to make that practice uniform. It has been demonstrated that it is possible, because it is being done, the charges being sufficient to cover the cost of maintenance of the meter, which is infinitesimal. If this meter charge is allowed to stand we may presently have to pay for the man to come along and read the meter—although, of course, we already pay for that in the charge for the gas or electricity, That such a simple remedy as has been suggested, which is so obviously just and equitable, cannot be put through would lead people to believe that Parliament has become so congested and clogged with work that the most elementary remedies for these problems which arise throughout the length and breadth of the land cannot be applied. The hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) has from time to time raised the question of the public being exploited in the charges for a few trivial things sold by kerb-side vendors, and we read in the papers this morning that immediate action is to be taken, under war time legislation, to put an end to that. If it is possible to deal with a poor wretch who earns a pittance or exploits the opportunity of war time to make a rather better living for himself, surely it is not beyond the capacity of the Government to deal with the simple problem before us. If we who are dealing with all the vast problems of a world war cannot dispose expeditiously of a small point like this it makes people think that Parliament is all that the totalitarian advocates have said that it is, both dilatory and inefficient. I appeal to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to confer with his right hon and gallant Friend to see whether something cannot be done, and done expeditiously, so as to save the good name of democracy and of the Government.