HC Deb 10 March 1943 vol 387 cc665-8
62. Mr. Liddall

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of, War Transport whether he can now furnish an estimate of the weight of traffic which has been discontinued by the prohibition of the conveyance of flowers by train?

Mr. Noel-Baker

In the last season in which there were no restrictions on the carriage of flowers by rail, approximately 10,000 tons of flowers were carried by rail from the principal growing areas to the principal markets. My hon. Friend will realise that flowers occupy a great deal of space in proportion to their weight; a load of 25 hundredweight of flowers fills a railway van weighing 25 tons. Thus the weight of the flowers themselves is not a reliable guide to the loss of transport capacity involved.

Mr. Logan

Is there any prohibition with regard to the weight of passengers?

Mr. Evelyn Walkden

In the case of the Great Western Railway, is not the amount of traffic that has been prohibited counter-balanced by the use of road transport from Penzance to London to bring flowers, thus using petrol and rubber, as is evidenced every day at Covent Garden Market?

Mr. Noel-Baker

I think the hon. Member is wrong in that assumption. If he will give me some evidence, I will look into it.

Mr. Walkden

Will not the hon. Gentleman send his inspectors to Covent Garden to find out for themselves?

Sir H. Williams

Is not the prohibition to transport flowers rather silly?

Mr. Noel-Baker

The transport position is not at all easy, and my hon. Friend will recognise that a very considerable economy in transport has been made.

64. Commander King-Hall

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether it is intended that under Statutory Rules and Orders, 1943, No. 232, paragraph I, Section 2, servants of the railway Company should search passengers' luggage?

Mr. Noel-Baker

If a railway servant has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a passenger's luggage contains flowers, he is expected to take steps to prevent a breach of the Order, though he would only be entitled to exercise the right of search, if he were authorised to do so under Defence Regulation 88A. AS I explained in my replies of 3rd March to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Leicester (Major Lyons) and to my hon. Friend the Member for Elland (Mr. Levy) powers of search depend on Defence Regulation 88A, and it is not intended that passengers should be put to any unnecessary inconvenience.

Major Lyons

Does my hon. Friend consider that Regulation 88A gives power to search outside the vehicle?

Mr. Noel-Baker

Yes, Sir, without any doubt, it gives power to search on railway premises.

Commander Agnew

Who will be present to give the authorisation under Regulation 88A to the servants of the company?

Mr. Noel-Baker

If there were no special authorisation in advance, it would have to be given by someone not lower than the superintendents' grade in the police force.

65. Commander King-Hall

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport why trees, shrubs and bushes with persistent hard woody stems, but not a rose or delphinium plant, may be consigned by rail?

Mr. Noel-Baker

The Government have decided that it is desirable, on grounds of general policy, that we should continue to transport fruit trees and bushes required for afforestation. It would not be practicable to expect the railway personnel to distinguish such trees and bushes from shrubs and other bushes with persistent woody stems. Such shrubs and bushes, including rose bushes, are, therefore, allowed. These trees, shrubs and bushes are less perishable than cut flowers and herbaceous plants, and therefore require less expeditious transit and handling.

Commander King-Halt

Does my hon. Friend realise that the space occupied by these is very much greater than that which would be occupied by flowers?

Mr. Noel-Baker

My hon. Friend is quite wrong. Herbaceous plants cannot be put on top of each other, but these bushes and trees can, and so occupy less space.

Miss Rathbone

Does not my hon. Friend think that the morale of the people of this country must indeed be in a poor way if they need cut flowers to keep it up?

66. Sir H. Williams

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what instructions have been given to employees of railway companies and to police officers to search passengers' luggage in order to ascertain whether such luggage contains flowers?

Mr. Noel-Baker

No special instructions have been given. Police officers enforce the law in the normal course of their duty.

Sir H. Williams

Do police officers go on to railway trains in performance of their duties under the law?

Mr. Noel-Baker

If necessary, they do so.

Sir H. Williams

Without the sanction of a superintendent, does a police officer go on to a railway train and say, "I want to look at your luggage"?

Mr. Noel-Baker

If he has an authorisation, he can do so.

Sir H. Williams

Who gives it?

Mr. Noel-Baker

It can be given by the competent authority.

Sir H. Williams

Is not the authority of a Minister of the Crown needed?

Mr. Noel-Baker

If my hon. Friend will look at the Defence Regulations, he will see.

Mr. Levy

Is it not impossible without a complete search of the various passengers' luggage to ascertain whether flowers are contained in the luggage or not, and is it not highly improper to use these Gestapo methods to examine people's luggage?

Mr. Noel-Baker

If my hon. Friend will make inquiries, he will find that only a small number of passengers' luggage has been examined and that no passenger has refused to open his bag when asked to do so. I think there is a general desire that this Order shall be upheld, and the present arrangements are working extremely well.

Mr. George Griffiths

Why is there this great interest in flowers at the present time? Is it because the hon. Members desire to have wreaths for the burial of the Beveridge Report?

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