§ 12. Sir Robert Youngasked the Minister of Pensions the position for pension of an ex-soldier's widow, whose husband died after prolonged medical treatment in 1942 when in receipt of full treatment allowances of £2 10s., less 9s. for hospital maintenance; whether the full treatment allowance is regarded as equal to a full pension; and whether in such a case a widow's pension of 26s. 8d. would be payable instead of £2 1s. paid to her while her husband was in hospital?
§ The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley)If the conditions of the Royal Warrant are fulfilled, the widow receives a pension of the amount stated whether her husband is in receipt of pension or of treatment allowances, at the time of his death.
§ 13. Mr. Bowlesasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in his reconsideration of the basis of the pension, he will consider adopting the principle of "Fit for service, fit for pension"?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThe only reasonable basis for the grant of war pensions is that of compensation for impairment of health resulting in some degree from the effects of service. I could not recommend that the State Should be made liable for the whole range of ailments which affect the population as a whole merely because they occurred during a period of service 825 without being in any way influenced by its conditions. Nor do I believe that ex-Service men would wish the standard of war pensions to be relaxed to this extent.
§ Mr. BowlesIf the Army, Navy or Air Force are prepared to take a man in to do active service and in the course of that service he is invalided out, does not my right hon. Friend agree that he should be fit to receive a pension?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThis is not a subject that can be dealt with by question and answer. I suggest that my hon. Friend introduces it in the Debate that will take place, I hope, shortly after we resume after Whitsun.
§ Mr. ShinwellDoes my right hon. Friend appreciate that all over the country there is deep resentment about the unfortunate position of many ex-Service men who are now on the dole? Surely that is a most invidious position for these men, for the nation and for the Government to be placed in. Will he consider in particular those doubtful cases where men are invalided from the Forces and are without any compensation whatever?
§ 14. Sir Smedley Crookeasked the Minister of Pensions whether a decision has yet been reached in the consultations with the Minister of Health regarding provision for the widows and children of men who lose their lives from non-contributable causes whilst serving in the forces, and in whose cases there are no entitlements under the Royal Warrant or the Contributory Pensions Act?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThis is one of the matters to which I shall refer in my general statement to the House at an early date.
§ Mr. BellengerIs not the matter referred to in the Question one primarily for the Minister of Health, and need it wait until my right hon. Friend makes his statement before we get a reply?
§ Sir. W. WomersleyNo, Sir, it is, not a matter primarily for the Minister of Health. I think I am finding a way out of the difficulty which will be satisfactory to the hon. Member.
§ 15. Mr. Cocksasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in disallowing claims for compensation for injuries sustained by Civil Defence volunteers, including members of the Police War Reserve, whilst 826 on their way to duty, he considers himself bound by the ruling of the courts under the Workmen's Compensation Acts that accidents occurring at such times do not arise out of and in the course of employment and are, therefore, not subjects for compensation?
§ Sir W. WomersleyYes, Sir. In view of the close similarity of the language used in Section 1 (1) of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925, and the definition of "war service injury" in Section 8 (1) 'of the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939, I think it right to accept the guidance of decisions of the courts given on the former Section. I do not, therefore, regard an injury sustained by a Civil Defence volunteer while on the way to his duty as arising "in the course of" such duty unless the circumstances of the case justify an exception to the general rule. Members of the Police War Reserve are, of course, treated in the same way on this point as all other Civil Defence volunteers.
§ Mr. CocksIs there not a great distinction between a Civil Defence worker and a man working for a private employer in industry, in that the former is working for the State in war-time and might have to deal with a civil emergency at any moment while on the way to work, and therefore his service is continuous?
§ Sir W. WomersleyIf the incident arises when action has been called for in case of emergency, the case is certainly entitled to consideration from me, but if it occurs in the ordinary way while the man is proceeding to his employment I cannot agree that the Act does allow me to give a pension.
§ 16. Mr. Erskine-Hillasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will take steps to increase the allowances paid for children of members of the Forces, in the event of their fathers' death on active service, to the same amount as is payable before their fathers' death?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThis subject forms part of the more general question relating to rates of pensions which was raised in the recent Debate and which I have under consideration. The hon. and learned Member's suggestion will be borne in mind.
§ 17. Mr. Manningham-Bullerasked the Minister of Pensions why a smaller pre- 827 natal allowance is paid to a widow of a member of the Forces when the death of her husband occurs more than three months before the anticipated date of birth, than that paid to the wife of a member of the Forces?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThe pre-natal allowance is an anticipation by about three months of the allowance which will become payable on the birth of the child and, as the rates paid for children are not uniform, it must necessarily vary in amount.
§ 18. Captain Cobbasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will undertake to publish in a White Paper the conclusions he has reached as a result of his consideration of pensions questions which have been submitted to him, in time for the matter to be debated by this House before the Summer Recess?
§ Sir W. WomersleyI would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Deputy-Prime Minister, on 3rd June, that this suggestion would be considered.
§ Captain CobbCould my right hon. Friend say whether we shall have an opportunity of discussing this question before the Summer Recess, as in the minds of most Members this is a matter of the greatest possible urgency and importance?
§ Sir W. WomersleyA pledge has already been given that there shall be a general Debate on all pensions questions.
§ 19. Commander Galbraithasked the Minister of Pensions why in the event of the death by accident of a member of the Forces while on 48 hours' leave no pension is payable to his widow although a pension is payable to her if the death occurs while her husband is on seven days' leave; whether he has reconsidered this matter and with what result?
§ Sir W. WomersleyI presume the hon. and gallant Member is referring to the liability accepted for injuries due to accidents occurring on the direct journey to or from a member's home. I shall deal with this matter in the general statement on war pensions which I have undertaken to make to the House.
§ Commander GalbraithDoes not my right hon. Friend think that it is necessary to give earlier consideration to this matter? Does he not appreciate the complete injustice of the position, and should not the Government consider it forthwith?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThat point has been put to me by many other hon. Members in reference to questions in which they are interested, and I think in fairness to the House I must deal with them all in a comprehensive statement.
20. Lieut.-Colonel Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Pensions Whether he has given further consideration to the publication of a White Paper or an announcement on forthcoming pensions reforms prior to debate in this House; and whether in any such statement he will show the Dominion pension rates and the conditions under which wives' and children's allowances are paid?
§ Sir W. WomersleyWith regard to the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister on 3rd June. With regard to the second part, some of the figures asked for are being circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Oldfield).
§ Sir I. FraserWill my right hon. Friend appreciate that the figures he will circulate in reply to the further Question will only tell half the story, because they will tell only what happens to a single man? Will he include in what he circulates the provisions made for men who marry after their disability?
§ Commander Locker-LampsonOught we not to do as well as our Dominions?
§ 21. Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will review the pensions of officers disabled in the last war, with a view to granting some increase at least to those who, owing to their disabilities, are unable to follow any employment?
§ Sir W. WomersleyI see no ground for increasing the disability retired pay of officers disabled in the last war as the rates were based on a cost of living figure in excess of that obtaining to-day.
§ Mr. LipsonIn view of the fact that many of these men are suffering great financial hardship, will the Minister not agree at least to consider their cases in the general review of the pensions position?
§ Sir W. WomersleyAny general statement about these men suffering financial hardship does not appear to me to be very strong, inasmuch as the minimum pension is £210 a year.
§ Mr. ShinwellWould it help this matter if we gave the Minister of Pensions a pension?
§ 22. Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Pensions whether pensions will be paid to the dependants of the three naval ratings and two members of the Women's Royal Naval Service who were killed when a motor-truck overturned near Warrington on 1st June?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThere has not yet been time to obtain the necessary particulars to enable these cases to be settled, but I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.
§ Mr. LipsonIs my right hon. Friend prepared to say now whether, in the circumstances in which this accident took place, he agrees that they were on duty?
§ Sir W. WomersleyHow can I give an opinion until I get the report? It only occurred a few days ago.
§ 23. Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Pensions how many persons, including children, have received payments under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme; whether he is satisfied that the present scales are equitable; and whether he proposes to institute a general inquiry into the operation of the scheme?
§ Sir W. Womersley131,692 persons, including children, have received payments under the scheme. This figure does not include additional allowances granted in respect of wives and children. The scales of pension under the scheme are generally the same as the basic rates for members of the Fighting Forces and are 830 thus included in the general survey of pensions matters-which I have in hand.
§ Mr. SorensenI am not sure whether I heard the answer rightly. Do I understand that the Minister will review this aspect of the pensions problem along with other aspects?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThis is one of the difficulties which has caused me some delay. In addition to dealing with Service pensions, my Ministry now has to deal with pensions for the civilian population, for the Merchant Navy and for the Civil Defence Forces, and therefore, whatever is done for the Services must certainly include the civilian population and others as well.
§ Mr. SorensenDo I understand, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman is going to make a statement with regard to this aspect of the problem when he speaks after the Recess?
§ Sir W. WomersleyI shall make a general statement on the whole of the pensions problem.
24. Mr. Rhys Davitesasked the Minister of Pensions whether he proposes to empower the tribunals he is about to set up to deal with claims for war pensions to determine in favour of the appellant though that determination may violate the provisions of the Royal Warrant and to suggest that the Royal Warrant should be amended to cover cases which are now outside its scope?
§ Sir W. WomersleyMy hon. Friend will see from the Bill which I introduced yesterday that the Government have decided that Appeal Tribunals must have regard to the terms of the Royal Warrant. Any relevant amendments which may be made in the Warrant will, of course, bear on decisions of the Tribunal as well as of the Ministry.
Mr. DaviesThe point I want the right hon. Gentleman to answer is this: If these tribunals find that they cannot deal fairly by these appellants within the provisions of the Royal Warrant, will it be competent for them to suggest to his Department that there should be an Amendment of the Royal Warrant?
§ Sir W. WomersleyYes, Sir, and I should certainly take a good deal of 831 notice of any such recommendations by tribunals, which come into close contact with cases.
§ Mr. Evelyn WalkdenIs the right hon. Gentleman not aware that 90 per cent. of the cases which cause annoyance to Members arise not from the degree of accident or injury or aggravation, but from the fact that the applicants' cases do not square with the Royal Warrant? Is he not aware that that is the cause of all the trouble?
§ Sir W. WomersleyI believe that is the cause of much trouble in connection with laws and regulations generally.
§ 25. Mr. Oldfieldasked the Minister of Pensions the maximum weekly compensation payable to an unmarried man of private soldier status, who becomes totally disabled in the present war, by the Pensions Ministries of Great Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa?
§ Sir W. WomersleyAs the reply involves a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. OldfieldDoes that mean a complete account of all the matters pertaining to pensions in New Zealand?
§ Sir W. WomersleyI am afraid that would fill a couple of OFFICIAL REPORTS, but I will give the hon. Member all the relevant information.
§ Following is the reply:
§ Maximum weekly compensation payable to an unmarried man of private soldier status who becomes totally disabled in the present war:
| s. | d. | |||
| Great Britain | … | … | 37 | 6 |
| Australia | … | … | 50 | 0* |
| Canada | … | … | $17.30 | |
| New Zealand | … | … | 40 | 0 |
| South Africa | … | … | 77 | 0 |
| * Increased from 42s. to 50s. with effect from 6th May, 1943. |
§ A true comparison of these rates cart only be made if regard is had to the cost of living in the Dominions.
§ 26. Mr. Bellengerasked the Minister of Pensions whether he will publish a statement showing what recommendations have been made to him by his Central 832 Advisory Committee during the past year affecting amendments to the pensions Warrant?
§ Sir W. WomersleyWhile I invariably give the fullest consideration to recommendations made by my Central Advisory Committee, the responsibility for final decisions necessarily rests with me, and it would be inconsistent with the purpose and usefulness of the Committee if I undertook to publish any part of its proceedings.
§ Mr. BellengerIs it not a fact that hon. Members from all parts of the House are included in that Committee, and does my right hon Friend suggest in his answer that the recommendations should be confidential to him only and that the House should not have some information on the matter?
§ Sir W. WomersleyThat is in accordance with the Statutory Rules and Regulations laid down.
§ Mr. BellengerWill not my right hon. Friend take some action to have some of the Rules amended?