HC Deb 20 January 1943 vol 386 cc205-9
45. Mr. Ellis Smith

asked the Prime Minister whether he will move to appoint a Select Committee to consider the Royal Warrant that forms the basis for the administration of the Ministry of Pensions, and that the Committee be authorised to send for papers or persons and to report?

The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee)

I am not aware of any reasons which would justify the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the Royal Warrant. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions has recently conferred with his statutory Advisory Committee in regard to certain minor changes which experience has shown to be necessary, and copies of the amended Warrant will be made available to hon. Members on the next Sitting Day.

Mr. Smith

Before the Royal Warrant is finally approved, will the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements for the House to consider it?

Mr. Attlee

I will consider that suggestion.

Later—

Mr. Ellis Smith

I desire to ask, Mr. Speaker, a question on Business and the procedure to be adopted. I understood from the Deputy Prime Minister that the revised Royal Warrant was to be published on the next Sitting Day. If that is so, is the procedure that the Royal Warrant will be submitted to His Majesty? In view of our past experience and the complaints in the country against the administration of previous Royal Warrants, should not the House be given an opportunity to consider this revised Royal Warrant before it is finally endorsed by His Majesty? If my understanding of the matter is correct, would the Leader of the House give an assurance that what I am asking should be adopted and that the revised Royal Warrant proposed to be published on the next Sitting Day will be withheld until the House has considered it?

Mr. Eden

I am sorry that I have not had notice of this. I am not familiar with the position, but I will try to familiarise myself with it as rapidly as I can and give the information to the House. As I have said, I had no idea that the hon. Gentleman intended to raise this matter.

Mr. Smith

I also had no idea that I intended to raise it. I am relying on an answer given by the Deputy Prime Minister, of which I had no knowledge. In view of the importance of this matter and before the House parts with the opportunity, may I request the Leader of the House to give this assurance? We ought to have the assurance from the Deputy Prime Minister.

Mr. Eden

I have my right hon. Friend's answer here, and I have been hurriedly looking at it. As I understand the position, I do not think it can be as urgent as the hon. Gentleman thinks, because, from the terms of my right hon. Friend's answer, it is clear that copies of the amended Warrant will be made available to hon. Members on our next Sitting Day. Therefore, I think that between now and then I can give a considered answer.

Mr. Smith

In view of that, is it the procedure that the revised Royal Warrant will be submitted to His Majesty before it is published, and, if so, should not the House have an opportunity of considering these revisions before the Warrant is finally endorsed by His Majesty?

Mr. Eden

I find it difficult to give an assurance owing to the absence of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and without knowledge of the terms of this Warrant, but I think I can give the assurance; anyhow, I will attempt to implement it.

Mr. Smith

This is important, Mr. Speaker. Will the Leader of the House give an assurance that publication of this Royal Warrant will be withheld until the question of what should be the procedure has been considered?

Mr. Eden

I am in a considerable difficulty. If the hon. Gentleman had given me only five minutes' notice, I could have sent for the Minister of Pensions and obtained the details of the Royal Warrant. As it is, I am quite ignorant of the terms of this Warrant, but what the hon. Gentleman suggests can, I think, be done. Anyway, I will try to meet him.

Mr. Stephen

Is not this the position? Since the amended Warrant will be made available to Members on our next Sitting Day, does that not show that it has already received Royal approval?

Mr. Eden

That is just the reservation I have in mind.

Mr. A. Bevan

The right hon. Gentleman seems to be perplexed about the wrong thing. What is being put is not what are the amendments in the Warrant but the whole matter of procedure and that before the Royal Warrant is amended the whole procedure should be revised, as this affects the welfare, of so many of our people, and we ought to have an opportunity of considering the proposed amendments before His Majesty appends his signature.

Mr. Eden

My difficulty is that the terms of the Royal Warrant are not familiar to me—if I could have had five minutes' notice, I could have looked up the terms—and I do not know what the position is at the moment. I will try to devise some means of giving the House information on this.

Mr. Bevan

The right hon. Gentleman is still pursuing the wrong point. The issue before us is not what amendments there are or are not in the Royal Warrant. The issue before us is that a new Royal Warrant is about to be issued and that that Royal Warrant has already been approved by His Majesty before the House of Commons has had an opportunity of discussing the amendments.

Mr. Eden

What I wish to find out are the exact circumstances and the exact position in relation to the Royal Warrant, with which I am not familiar, I cannot be expected to carry that in my head, and that is why I wish I could have had notice. I will try to find some means of meeting the difficulty.

Mr. Ellis Smith

In view of the seriousness of this matter, there are other steps which we can take under the Standing Orders if we choose to do so, but in view of the difficulty in which the right hon. Gentleman is, we do not want to take those steps. However, the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty is not our responsibility. It is the Government's. I also have the right to complain, because I had no knowledge of the reply which was to be given. In view of the seriousness of this matter, may I again ask whether we can have an assurance from the Leader of the House that publication of the Royal Warrant will be withheld until the right hon. Gentleman has had an opportunity of giving consideration to the point?

Mr. Eden

I will look into this matter and try to meet my hon. Friend's point. He says that he could not have given me notice, but if he had even told me after my right hon. Friend gave his answer, I should have had a moment in which to look into the matter. But I was given no notice. I ask my hon. Friend to accept the assurance that I will do all that lies within my power to meet the point which he has raised.

Mr. Bellenger

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. If, as I assume, the Royal Warrant has been approved by His Majesty and will be published on the next Sitting Day, is there any step that any hon. Member can take to record his protest against the Royal Warrant and to secure a revision of it?

Mr. Eden

That is exactly the point I have to inquire into.

Mr. Bellenger

I was asking you, Mr. Speaker,

Mr. Speaker

I can only give the same answer that has been given by the Minister.

Mr. Smith

This question is so serious that I had intended to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to it as a matter of urgent public importance. I do not want to be forced into that position. In regard to the accusation made by the Leader of the House about my not giving him notice, I am the last person who would wish to be discourteous, but I was not able to give him notice because of the fact that the answer was given only a few minutes ago. I had to consult authorities on procedure before I felt competent to take the stand I am now taking. May I again ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will give an assurance to the House that publication of this Royal Warrant will be withheld until he and the Government have had an opportunity of considering the point I have raised?

Mr. Eden

I do not know whether or not the Royal Warrant has already been published. The only assurance I can give the hon. Member, which I think is a perfectly fair one, is that if there is any step which it is within my power to take constitutionally, I shall take it. Beyond that I cannot go.

Mr. Greenwood

I am afraid we have spent a long time on this question. I am as ignorant of the practice as the right hon. Gentleman is. If it be the case that the Royal Warrant is not yet published and is to be published on the next Sitting Day, would it be possible to withhold publication of it until my right hon. Friend can make a statement, say, at the end of Questions then? This might solve the problem.

Mr. Eden

That is the kind of thing I had in mind. If that is the position, that is what I will do.