HC Deb 23 February 1943 vol 387 cc5-7
11. Major Lyons

asked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent his Department found embarrassment in the prosecution of the war effort by the present machinery enabling a search warrant to be obtained by ordinary process of law; and to meet what difficulties did his Department find it necessary to issue Statutory Rules and Orders No. 102 of 1943?

12. Sir H. Williams

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, seeing that in connection with the issue and/or execution of a search warrant there are statutory and other conditions and safeguards to be observed, he will take steps to apply the same to the machinery authorised by Section 2 of Statutory Rules and Orders No. 102 of 1943?

13. Mr. Levy

asked the President of the Board of Trade for what reason the ordinary procedure for search of any premises has been abandoned and special powers sought under Section 2 of the Statutory Rules and Orders No. 102 of 1943?

Mr. Dalton

The Board of Trade have not found themselves embarrassed in the prosecution of the war by any defect in the machinery relating to search warrants, which empowers the search for and seizure of evidence in connection with any crime. The powers contained in the Order referred to in the Questions are designed, not for the detection of crimes, but to assist the Board to carry out their day-to-day duties in relation to the general war-time control of industry, entrusted to them by this House.

Sir H. Williams

Do I understand from that reply that the Board of Trade consider it necessary to invade all sorts of private premises without justification and examine all documents without reference to the principal, or even the business manager being present?

Mr. Dalton

Nothing is done without justification.

Major Lyons

Is it necessary for the Board to have power to enter an employer's premises without notice and cross-examine the most junior members of the staff and search the desks of employees in their absence when no crime is contemplated?

Mr. Dalton

I do not think that that is a very accurate description of what is likely to take place.

Sir H. Williams

Why, when there is justification, cannot a search warrant be obtained instead of adopting this Gestapo method?

Mr. Levy

Is this not an Order that has not to lie upon the Table and therefore one of those Orders to which the House of Commons is raising great objections; and why could not this have been done by Order in Council instead of by Sub-Order, which does not come before this House at all and is therefore outside its jurisdiction?

Mr. Dalton

That, of course, raises a much larger question, which, I understand, some hon. Members are pursuing through the usual channels—a much wider question than the issue on the Paper. The Order about which I am asked here is an Order which I shall be prepared to defend if hon. Members pursue their intention, as I understand, of raising a Debate upon it in this House. The purpose of the Order is to enable the Board of Trade to obtain particulars and returns which are essential to our carrying on the work which has been entrusted to us by this House in connection with the war effort. It has not so far given cause for any complaint at all from any persons affected by it, and it does not differ in any marked degree, except by way of bringing together in a comprehensive form certain powers which have previously been given by other Orders in particular cases, from many Orders which have been operating for a considerable time without giving ground for any complaint.

Mr. Levy

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that Orders made in this fashion preclude the House of Commons from discussing them?

Major Lyons

Can the right hon. Gentleman say on how many occasions this Order has been acted upon?

Mr. Dalton

That Question had better be put on the Paper.