HC Deb 04 February 1943 vol 386 cc1135-42

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Boulton.]

Sir Ernest Graham-Little (University of London)

When I asked permission to bring before the House on the Adjournment a matter vitally affecting London University the position was that one of its most important schools—the School of Oriental and African Studies—was threatened with immediate eviction from its own specialised building, and it was in these circumstances that the Vice-Chancellor of the University commissioned me as Member for the University to draw the attention of Parliament to that position. This morning the School received an offer, made, I understand, upon the authority of the Cabinet itself, which assures to the School for the duration of the war the occupation of that part of the building which it now occupies, and as that very happy turn of events resolves that critical position, I need not detain the House any longer, except to thank whoever was responsible for that solution, and in a very particular measure the Leader of the House. I hope that this discussion will, at any rate, have drawn attention to the high importance of that School. It is the only School of its kind not only in this country and not only in the British Empire, but in the Anglo-Saxon world, and it has made so great a reputation that it has received an invitation to explain to certain authorities in the United States how they can start a similar school, as they have observed the very remarkable advance which has been made here. As that School conducts studies which are important for so large a part of the world, it is surely highly important that we should keep it and maintain its present activities.

The Lord President of the Council (Sir John Anderson)

I am very reluctant to take up any of the time of the House after the statement my hon. Friend has just made, but I think it is important in this matter that any possibility of misapprehension as to what has actually occurred should be removed. My hon. Friend, who, I recognise, was careful in what he had to say in order to keep clear of some extravagant statements of the sort which have been appearing in the Press, did, nevertheless, say that the School was threatened, because of Government action, with immediate eviction. I must really take exception to that presentation of the case, and I will tell the House in a very few words what the recent course of events has been. This School and the Ministry of Information have for many months past been near neighbours and since both the School and the Ministry required additional accommodation, the question has arisen, which of them should give way to the other. But this is not a case of a conflict between an institution carrying on is own work in its own way and powerful interests of the State. The interests of the State are involved here on both sides because, as my hon. Friend has said, this School is doing work of the most vital importance, in which no fewer than four Secretaries of State are most closely and intimately concerned. Nevertheless, a conflict did arise as between one public interest and another.

Such conflicts in matters of accommodation are constantly arising and methods have been found for resolving them. This particular case came, in the ordinary course before a tribunal which the Government had set up for dealing with such matters. If the position were that the Government were being called upon as the result of agitation to brush aside the findings of such a tribunal, I should have no doubt at all as to where I would stand in the matter. The tribunal is presided over by a right hon. Gentleman formerly well known to Members of this House as Mr. Ramsbotham, now Lord Soulbury. It has dealt with a very large number of disputes, has clear them up and resolved many troublesome tangles. In this case they made an award which, put briefly, was to this effect, that the Ministry of Information should give up at once as an interim measure a portion of the building which they were occupying in common user and that another building some distance off should be adapted as rapidly as possible for occupation by the School of Oriental Studies. In their finding the tribunal laid it down that such work as might be necessary to meet the School's reasonable requirements should be carried out as rapidly as possible. There is no question here, I am glad to say, of flouting the decision of the tribunal. What has happened is, that a difference of opinion has developed in regard to the interpretation of the tribunal's award in regard to what may be regarded as reasonable requirements. According to the demands of the School, work of a purely temporary utility, costing no less than £20,000, would have had to be carried out at the expense of the State. In the view of the Ministry of Works, all that was reasonably required could be done for £11,000, and as between these two figures there was conflict, and that really is the whole story.

The Government, being very anxious indeed that the reasonable convenience both of the Ministry of Information and of the School of Oriental Studies should be met, have been for some weeks past casting about to see whether they could find some alternative solution, and, quite apart from any agitation—and I am sorry that there should have been any agitation in this matter—a plan was being devised and it came to its final stage last evening. It is the plan to which my hon. Friend referred. It has been put to the School and I hope very sincerely that it will be accepted. What it involves briefly is, that a portion of the building, which is at present unfinished, which consists of a steel frame and nothing more, should be completed at the expense of the Government in the first instance; that until that portion has been completed the School should remain in undisturbed occupation of the premises which it now occupies, and that until that unfinished building has been completed, the Ministry of Information should be subjected to the very considerable inconvenience of having staffs out-housed. It may take four, five or even more months before they can get in. Inconvenience will be suffered by the Ministry of my right hon. Friend, who, in a very public-spirited way, having heard the arguments, has said, that he is willing to subject himself and his staff to that degree of inconvenience. When that work is complete, the Ministry's staff will go into the new portion of the building. Ultimately, six months after the end of hostilities, the School for whom that building was being constructed when the war broke out, will enter into occupation of the finished building and will not have to wait indefinitely in order to get the building necessary to meet their full requirements.

I think hon. Members will agree that the offer which has been made to the governing body of the School is a very fair one and one which they will be well advised to accept. It may be that when that offer is put to those concerned, some may be disposed to say that their requirements are not fully satisfied and that they would like more accommodation. But what is the position of the whole community under present conditions? Who can say that he is entirely satisfied with the conditions under which he is carrying on his work to-day? I am sure that no Cabinet Minister would say that; there are very few people, indeed, who are in the fortunate position of being entirely satisfied with the conditions under which they are working. I believe that every research institution in the country feels that it could do better work if it had more accommodation, and better facilities and if there were-no black-out. So, I hope that the authorities of the School, when they come to consider this offer, will not press the considerations of convenience too far but will recognise that the Government have made an offer which they could not have made but for the great public importance of the work that is being done and the act of self-denial by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Information. I hope, too, that the School will recognise the great assistance that has been rendered in this matter by the Ministry of Works and Planning, which has gone to considerable trouble in order to find a solution satisfactory to all concerned.

Mr. Silkin (Peckham)

I do not think that anybody will quarrel with the way in which the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council has presented the case. I think he stated it quite fairly and I am sure that the School of Oriental Languages will wish to associate themselves with the tribute paid to the Ministry of Works and Planning. But I cannot altogether agree with him when he quarrels with the agitation which has taken place over this matter. I think it is the duty of Members, when they feel that an injustice is being done, to raise their voices in this House and elsewhere in order to see that that injustice is remedied. That is all the agitation amounted to. Some of us, including myself, have taken a certain amount of trouble to acquaint ourselves with the facts of this case and we felt strongly that if the work which the Government put upon the School is to be done effectively, that work could not have been done under the decision arrived at by the tribunal under the direction of the right hon. Gentleman.

For that reason we felt that the matter could not rest. However, I think everyone will accept the position as put by the right hon. Gentleman. I believe the School will recognise that in these difficult conditions and circumstances, the best possible has been done. I believe they will accept the decision in the letter and in the spirit and that they will endeavour to accommodate themselves to the needs of the present day. The difficulties the School has felt have not arisen through the black-out, or war conditions of that sort. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to know this: that increasing demands are being made on the School, quite legitimately, for the purposes of furthering the war effort. They are doing a vital piece of work. I have been over the School and have looked into some classes and I wish my right hon. Friend had had an opportunity of doing the same, because he would have found that in many of those classes it will be physically impossible to get one more student. I have looked for myself and have found that even as things are the students are overcrowded.

If it were not for the circumstances of the war, one could not justify the students carrying on in those conditions. No one was complaining, certainly not the students, about the conditions under which they are working, but the School is being asked to multiply by several times the number of students it will accept, and if the position be in many classes that they cannot get one more student into them, one wonders how it will be possible for them to carry on. I feel that that note of warning ought to be introduced. Nevertheless, I believe that the School will see what arrangements they can make and what re-arrangements may be possible. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that they will do it sincerely and with the best of good will, and I hope that the problems can be solved, because they are as anxious as anyone else to further the national effort. I would like to express the gratitude of all concerned to everyone who has taken part in the negotiations, particularly the Minister of Information, who has so graciously given way. I hope that nothing more on the subject will need to be discussed in this House, but one never knows.

Mr. Hannah (Bilston)

I hope this Debate will have done real good in drawing attention to the admirable work of the London University in establishing this School and maintaining it in such efficiency. At the time I was living in the East, although we had the largest trade with China of any foreign country, it was a common complaint that we were more badly equipped in language than any other European nation. Now we have the extremely important work in the East of driving the flag of the Rising Sun from the seas and re-establishing our own prestige and that of China. There is no doubt whatever that this School will be more needed than ever before. Therefore, I hope that this Debate will draw the attention of the whole country to the extremely important work which the School is doing.

Mr. Edmund Harvey (Combined English Universities)

I think the whole House must have heard with thankfulness that a solution appears to have been reached on the question on which the House of Commons showed that it felt strongly when it was first raised by my hon. Friend the Member for London University (Sir Graham-Little). I think it would be a pity if this Debate ended on any note of controversy, but I could not help regretting a little that the Lord President, in announcing what is after all a healing decision, should have spoken so severely about agitation. If there had been no agitation raised here or outside, the decision would have remained, which would have been against the interests of the country as well as against the interests of the school.

Sir J. Anderson

That is exactly the point of what I said. Negotiation was still proceeding; the matter had not been brought to finality and any public agitation was entirely premature, and I did wish to guard against the suggestion that the findings of a judicial tribunal can be properly overborne by agitation from one party.

Mr. Harvey

I do not want to make a controversy about the matter, but the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that there was a difference of view as to the meaning and application of the decision. That difference was of vital importance to the School of Oriental and African studies. However, I think that we can earnestly hope that the solution which has been proposed will lead to satisfactory results. As regards the further accommodation which is needed in the interest of the Service Departments, they will no doubt be able to put their own case to the Government at the appropriate time.

It is not simply a question, as I think is realised, of the urgent needs of the present, but of the whole need of the future, when we shall require to have representatives of this country, consular and others, adequately equipped with a knowledge not only of Chinese and in due time Japanese, but also of the Amharic language in Ethiopia and other languages which need the most careful study under especially appropriate conditions. For all these this School renders a unique service. We are grateful to the Government, and many of us feel grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for London University for the part he has taken in the matter. We are grateful also to the Ministry of Information for having been willing to make a sacrifice of their own convenience in the general interest of the national good.

Miss Rathbone (Combined English Universities)

I wish to put a question arising out of something which the Lord President of the Council said. I take it that, although this is an arrangement which has been accepted oh both sides, it does not mean that should there be in future a necessity on State grounds for some means of expanding the School, the present arrangement will be held to debar those interested in the future of the School from putting forward their own representations if the public interest should demand it.

Sir J. Anderson

I have been dealing only with the immediate issue. If circumstances change and new needs develop, they will have to be considered, and ways will have to be found of meeting them. I sincerely hope the discussions will proceed in an amicable way.

Sir E. Graham-Little

I was not entirely clear whether it is accepted that the School is assured of its occupation of the part of the building which it at present occupies for the duration of the war.

Sir J. Anderson

So far as can at present be foreseen. If this proposal is accepted by the School—and I do not know at the moment whether the School will eventually accept it, although I hope they will and think they would be Well advised to do so—the intention is that the School should remain in undisturbed possession of the premises they at present occupy and that that position should continue until they take over the whole building six months after the termination of hostilities.

Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.