JUVENILE DELINQUENTS (TREATMENT) (Hansard, 17 December 1943)

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid (St. Marylebone)
As fresh considerations have arisen, I make no apology for referring again to the deplorable conditions to which a juvenile girl delinquent was subjected at a hostel. This has become known as the Mary case. It will be recollected that while Mary was working at this particular hostel, there was a change of wardens, and I alleged that the first warden, not content with working this girl until the girl's hands were practically raw, also set a bad example to this child, who had been put on probation for being drunk. I also pointed out that the surveillance exercised by the probation officer concerned had not been efficient. Had it been efficient, such treatment would have been avoided. The Home Secretary thereupon produced one of those pots of whitewash of which there has appeared recently to be an unlimited supply at the Home Office, and both the probation officer and the warden were exonerated, and all those ever-trusting, faithful Government yes-men believed, with ill-concealed glee, that the hon. and gallant Member for St. Marylebone—

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
These gentlemen believed that the hon. and gallant Member for St. Marylebone, regardless of the merits of his case, had been out-manoeuvred and downed. Anyhow, for the present he is up on his feet again. As it was, the Home Secretary who had contradicted what his Under-Secretary had admitted in a previous Debate on this 1931 question, and as it was the Home Secretary who claimed that I had misled the House, I asked, and hoped, that he would be present to-day, as he is the person with whom I have a bone to pick. But no doubt his admirable deputy will be able to speak for him.
The Home Office have now taken Mary away from the probation officer who had been responsible for her, and, incidentally, Mary is now about to do the kind of work that she has always wanted to do. She is going to work on a farm. Consequently, the House will appreciate that I have achieved my original objective, which was to provide a more wholesome and a happier life for a young constituent of mine. I hope that other juvenile Mary Magdalenes may benefit indirectly. Therefore, in the ordinary course of events I would not have brought up this matter again; but an important matter of principle has arisen. I hope to be able to prove to the House that the Home Secretary has made a mistake which no Home Secretary ought to make, and unless today conclusive evidence to the contrary can be produced, it will be clear that the Home Secretary has obtained information on which to base the verdict he gave in the House from the defendants only. The plaintiffs and the plaintiffs' chief witnesses were not consulted.
On 17th November I received a letter from Mary. I will read only an extract: Dear Captain, I am writing to thank you for all you have done for me in the past few weeks. I have been reading the newspapers, and I cannot even think how they can say that the things you said in the House were not true. I am sure that whoever conducted the supposed investigation must be having some very sleepless nights. This child of 15 has yet to learn just how sensitive and tender is the average Cabinet Minister. It so happened that six days before receiving Mary's letter I had written to the Home Secretary. And I said, referring to the "Mary" case: You will recollect that in the House last Thursday I asked you several questions, but no doubt owing to the diversions caused by the Noble Lord you or the Under-Secretary overlooked answering them, and I should be obliged if you will do so now, and I should also like some information on one or two other points. Then followed a few questions which, if truthfully answered, would show whether 1932 it was the Home Secretary or whether it was I who had misled the House. After three weeks' delay the Home Secretary wrote to me and said: I have considered your letter of 17th January about the girl called 'Mary' and, in reply to the specific questions which you put to me, I do not feel able to add anything to the very full statement which I made in the House on 11th November. If there was ever a case of evading the issue, here is a blatant example. In the statement referred to by the Home Secretary—the statement he made in the House—not one of the questions I had asked in that letter was answered, and the House may realise why the Home Secretary was not able to answer the questions I put to him in writing when I tell the House what some of the questions were. First of all, I asked: "From whom did you get the information that Mary was not overworked at the hostel about which I have complained?" I do not know whether the hon. Lady is going to answer these questions—I hope on this occasion I may at last get an answer—but in case I am unable to get replies to reasonable questions that I am entitled to ask about a constituent of mine, I am going to give now what I have every reason to believe are the replies. The reply to that question is mat die information that this girl was overworked came from the woman who overworked her—the first warden. I feel, therefore, that that is an allegation that the hon. Lady cannot let go by. If that is not so, she will undoubtedly, either now or later, tell us, but I have a sort of feeling that she will not be able to deny it.
The next question is: "Did the first warden have bottles of intoxicating spirits in her room?" And the answer to that is, "Yes," and this was strictly against Y.W.C.A. regulations. Another question was, "Why did this first warden give no report of Mary to the second warden?" One went out and the other came in and they overlapped, and the answer to that question is, "Because she carried out her duties in a negligent manner." A further question: "Was another 15-yearold girl who came from the same Remand Home as Mary, and who was also under the supervision of the first warden, discovered at this hostel with a man in her bedroom?" I have not had a reply to that, for the simple reason that the answer to it is, "Yes," and I defy the Home Office to be able to say otherwise. 1933 Another question I addressed to the Home Secretary in writing many weeks ago, to which I have had no reply, was, "If a London or local probation officer had visited Mary during her first five weeks at the hostel and if they had ascertained that the answer to questions 5 and 2 were in the affirmative, would this hostel have been considered a suitable environment for encouraging this juvenile delinquent not to repeat past offences?" The answer is, "No."
Question 7: "When you spoke on this subject on 11th November, had the Y.W.C.A. made inquiries concerning my allegations from anybody who was in that hostel when the first warden was in charge, other than from this warden? If so, from whom?" The answer is: "No inquiries were made from anyone else in the hostel." Question 8: "When you spoke on this subject on 11th November, had any representative of the Home Office other than probation officers made inquiries concerning my allegations from anybody in the hostel when the first warden was in charge? If so, who were the representatives and from whom did they make inquiries?" the answer is: "Only those implicated made inquiries." Question 9: "Between the time that I brought the matter up in the House of Commons and when you spoke on the same subject on 11th November had any representative of the Home Office other than probation officers interrogated Mary or her mother?" The answer to that is, "No. Mary and her mother were not interrogated, although they were the central figures. It was a one-sided inquiry." Question 10: "In the House on 11th November the Home Secretary said, 'Mary would have wished to stay there if her mother had not removed her.' Was he correctly informed about the mother?" The answer to that is, "The Home Office was misinformed."
I want to leave time for a reply to these important questions, so I will add only this. If to-day the hon. Lady refuses to give straight answers to proper and simple questions that I put to the Home Secretary that admittedly concern only a humble and small girl of 15, then the Home Secretary will have only himself to blame if, coming on top of the Mosley incident, the public, rightly or wrongly, starts to get the idea that he is becoming the champion of the privileged as against the underdog.

§ Mr. Beverley Baxter (Wood Green)
My hon. and gallant Friend mentioned bottles of "booze," or drinks, in the lady's room. Were there a large number of bottles or perhaps only one for medicinal purposes?

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
I think I can best answer that by giving a few short details about the circumstances. This girl, Mary, who had been placed on remand because she had been found drunk at one o'clock in the morning at Hyde Park Corner, found it to be one of her duties to have to remove from the warden's bed-sitting room not just an occasional bottle of spirits for medicinal purposes but empty gin and whisky bottles and soda water bottles.

§ Mr. Hubert Beaumont (Batley and Morley)
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say from whom he derived this information?

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Yes, I got it from the main character in this incident—Mary—and had it corroborated by people actually residing in the hostel, the names of whom I have all along offered to give to the Home Secretary.

§ Mr. Goldie (Warrington)
I have had some experience of the administration of the criminal law. Everyone knows that a child of 15 or 16 is probably the most inaccurate witness you could possibly get and, although corroboration is not absolutely necessary, one would hesitate to accept any statement made without corroboration by a girl of 15. Was it corroborated by anyone?

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
The answer is, Yes. If the Home Office is able to answer these questions, or the most important ones, in a manner which can satisfy the House that there is no justification for the implication in these questions, including the one I have just been asked concerning drink, and that the Home Office has consulted prior to the Home Secretary's speech on this subject not only the defendants but also the plaintiff and the plaintiff's witnesses, I can assure the House that I shall be very glad handsomely to withdraw any allegation that I have made, as the Home Secretary so kindly suggested that I should do when he addressed the House on this topic not so very long ago. On the other hand, 1935 if the Home Office cannot satisfy the House in answer to these questions, then the hon. Lady should withdraw the allegation made specifically by the Home Secretary against me in which it was said that my exposures were unjustified and unfair. Anyhow the least the hon Lady can do is to admit that perhaps the Home Office should have asked for evidence from the plaintiff or from the plaintiff's witnesses. After all, they were the people who were in a position to know the facts, for the very simple reason that they were situated where the matters complained of took place, a somewhat important qualification which could not be claimed by the probation officer concerned or by the headquarters of the Y.W.C.A.

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security (Miss Wilkinson)
I had understood from the hon. and gallant Gentleman that his reason for returning to this case and taking up the time of the House with it was that he had some fresh material to bring forward. He certainly gave the Home Secretary that impression, and he has given it to me. What he has done now is, in a rather weaker and more watery way, to repeat a considerable number of statements that he made previously, backed up with as little evidence as on the first occasion. We are now told that this girl's hands were practically raw. I wish to state perfectly flatly that that is entirely untrue. We have admitted that at the time she was not visited by the woman probation officer because the officer was herself ill. She had been bombed out, and there was a great deal of pressure of work on her. But what had been done was to find this girl a situation in a hostel for Land Army girls not run by the Home Office, not a detention home or a remand home, or even a home for the correction of character. She was given a position as domestic servant in this hostel. It is true that for the first fortnight she was working very long hours, and, as soon as that matter was reported, it was put right. That is the whole of the real substance of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's case.

§ Miss Wilkinson
The hon. and gallant Member had 20 minutes, and he is giving 1936 me 10 minutes to reply. Will he listen to what I have to say?

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Yes, if the hon. Lady eventually answers my questions? That is all I have asked for.

§ Miss Wilkinson
Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman allow me to finish my case? He finished his. With regard to the woman warden, it is really too bad that her character has been taken away by the hon. and gallant Gentleman in the way that it has. This matter has been investigated not only by the Home Office but by officials of the Ministry under which the Y.W.C.A. hostel comes. There have been the fullest investigations, and we have taken evidence not only from the people concerned, the people accused, but also from the people who it was said were speaking against the character of this woman, including a caretaker and his wife. We have signed witnesses' statements that whatever they have said about this warden, with whom apparently there was some quarrel, they had at no time made any statement against her moral character. With regard to this business of the doctor being in the room of the warden, the warden has a bed-sitting room in which she is accustomed to receive people and to have conversations with them.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
I never said anything about a doctor.

§ Miss Wilkinson
The hon. and gallant Gentleman said there was a man, and the only man to date whom we have discovered as having been in this unfortunate lady's bed-sitting room was the doctor. This doctor was accustomed, as it seems to me clearly to be his duty, to consult the warden of the hostel. In all the offices of responsible civil servants, even of women civil servants and women Ministers now, there is a bed, because many of them have to spend the night in their offices, as they are working very late. It does not mean, because we have to interview men in the office in which there is a bed, that therefore the moral character of every woman civil servant and woman Minister is to be called in question. The bed-sitting room of this woman warden opens off the sick bay, and when the doctor had dealt with any of the patients and if he wanted to discuss a case, he went to the room of the warden to discuss it with her. 1937 As far as we can gather, no male foot has ever stepped into the room of this warden after 5.30 p.m. Owing to all the trouble that the hon. and gallant Member has raised, this warden did not feel that she wanted to stay at this hostel.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
She left long before I had mentioned this matter in the House at all.

§ Miss Wilkinson
The hon. and gallant Member had made a fuss about her before he made it in the House. She was very anxious not to stay on and left a fortnight later. Several other jobs were offered to her, and she is now happily in another hostel, where, I have no doubt, she has still a bed-sitting room which seems to upset the hon. and gallant Gentleman so much.
What is the case of this unfortunate girl herself? One must think to some extent of what happened in the past. She is only a child. When the hon. and gallant Gentleman speaks about her being a Mary Magdalene, I would remind him that the only thing that has been brought against the character of this unfortunate child is that she was once drunk. There is no allegation against her moral character at all. There is no doubt that she was overworked during the first fortnight, we are willing to admit it. After that, with another lady in charge, her life was very much happier. When her mother called to take her away the girl said that she did not want to go, but she did return with her mother, and as far as we can gather from what the mother said and what the girl has said there has been nothing but quarrels between mother and daughter in the home ever since.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Quite untrue.

§ Miss Wilkinson
The hon. and gallant Member says one thing, and the mother and daughter come to the probation officer and say another, so we can either believe the mother and daughter or we can believe the hon. and gallant Member when he says that what we say is quite untrue. He has asked where we got our evidence. We got it from the girl and her mother.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Who gave it to you? Was it the probation officer concerned, the one of whom I had complained. If so the evidence is biased.

§ Miss Wilkinson
As a matter of fact, it was not that particular probation officer, because we put another probation officer to help the first one with the case. She is a very experienced probation officer. We brought her into this case because the hon. and gallant Member had disliked the first probation officer. [Interruption.] The hon. and gallant Member comes here and tries to scrape up every horrid thing he can say against the Home Secretary, and he must not be surprised if he just gets slapped back in return.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
The hon. Lady is again side-tracking the whole issue. I have only asked for answers to certain specific questions.

§ Miss Wilkinson
I am endeavouring to answer the hon. and gallant Gentleman's questions.

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
Not one yet. I said—

§ Miss Wilkinson
Mr. Speaker, I must appeal to you. I cannot speak with all this going on. [Interruption.] Oh, do be quiet. I think the hon. and gallant Member will really have to be seen by a probation officer in the professional sense. Now what happens? This very experienced probation officer whom we asked to deal with the case has interviewed the mother and daughter a number of times, and as a result she has concluded that it is impossible for Mary to remain at home with her mother and in the situation in which her mother was living. The girl says that she was very unhappy and bitterly regrets having left the land hostel, where she still maintains she was happy. She said that she would like to go on a farm. The difficulty has been that owing to the fuss that has been made about her it has been difficult to get her fixed up. It has taken quite a long time to find her a suitable place. The second probation officer has now found a farm where there are a good number of animals—ducks, chickens and cows—and she is going to live there, in the house. She will be paid 35s. a week, and will pay 25s. for board and lodging, and 10s. will be given to her for pocket money. She is very much looking forward to going there and is delighted with the arrangement. While she is there she will be under the supervision of the local probation officer with whom the probation officer in London— 1939 not the first one, but the second one—will keep well in touch. We find her an excellent probation officer.
Here I want the hon. and gallant Member to realise that I think his difficulty has been that he has accepted at its face value all that the mother has stated. I think that really he has been led away. We have gone into this matter very carefully, and I think that if the hon. and gallant Member knew as much of this business as we do, he would not place so much credence on the mother's statements as he seems to do. We have asked the mother whether she will go down to the farm and see for herself all the arrangements being made for Mary and see whether that suits her, The mother has absolutely refused to go. We are sending Mary down there without her mother having seen the place, and I have no doubt that after Mary has been there a short time the hon. and gallant Member will again be coming to the House with complaints from the mother, who will say that we have again ill-used her daughter. That is the difficulty, that the 1940 mother and daughter are in, this very difficult relationship, and if the hon. and gallant Member insists upon taking the mother's word on this case, I think he will find himself in difficulties. I can understand the hon. and gallant Member's position. I know he is anxious to do his best in the matter, and I can assure him that all of us are, and I think the arrangements which have now been made for the girl are quite satisfactory.

§ Mr. Denville (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central)
It is usual at this time of year, Mr. Speaker, to wish you and your staff and deputies and all concerned a Merry Christmas and, I hope, a peaceful New Year, and may I be permitted to do so?

§ Captain Cunningham-Reid
May I second that?

§ Mr. Speaker
Thank you very much, and the same to you.