HC Deb 06 April 1943 vol 388 cc484-8
37. Mr. Rowlands

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power why he has found it necessary to take over the control of the Point of Ayr Collieries, Ffynnongroew, Flintshire?

38. Sir Stanley Reed

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what the reasons were for the issue of the Order to take over the Ffynnongroew Colliery, Flintshire, from the Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited; whether any criticisms had been made of its management; whether he is aware that it had the highest output per man of all the collieries in North Wales and the best safety record, and had been free from stoppages since the great coal strike of 1924; and whether his attention has been directed to the comments of Mr. Justice Singleton in giving judgment in the appeal against the vesting order?

43. Mr. Colegate

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether, in view of Mr. Justice Singleton's remarks on the imposition of control on the Point of Ayr Colliery, he will now remove this control?

44. Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether his attention has been called to the comments made by the learned Judge in the case of Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited, versus Lloyd George and others; and whether he still intends to take over the control of the colliery?

62. Mr. Wootton-Davies

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether his attention has been called to the remarks of Mr. Justice Singleton in the case of the Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited, versus Lloyd George and others; and what action he intends to take?

63. Sir L. Lyle

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he can make any statement as to the output and degree of efficiency of the Point of Ayr Colliery in Flintshire prior to taking over control of that undertaking; how its efficiency compared with other pits of the same character; what increase of efficiency there has been since it was taken over; and whether he can make a short statement as to the reason for this change of control?

64. Mr. Simmonds

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what was the condition of affairs at the Point of Ayr Colliery which decided him to place this colliery under his own control?

65. Mr. Ralph Etherton

asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that the High Court Judge who tried the case of Point of Ayr Collieries, Limited, against Lloyd George and others, indicated in his judgment that in making a Control Order his Department appeared to have acted both lightly, unfairly and without good cause; what safeguards or rights of appeal are available in such an event; and what action he proposes to take?

The Minister of Fuel and Power (Major Lloyd George)

The decision to take control of this undertaking, whose technical efficiency has never been in dispute, was only reached after the most careful consideration, lasting many months. There has been considerable friction, extending over several years, in the North Wales coalfield as a result of the refusal of the undertaking to agree to the request of the North Wales and Border Counties Mine Workers' Association to be allowed the same facilities on behalf of its members at this colliery as are allowed to the Association at all the other collieries in the district. My hon. Friends will appreciate that the co-operation of all engaged in the industry is vital to the war effort. Repeated attempts have been made to remove the causes of this friction by my Department. The North Wales Coal-owners' Association have also done everything in their power to assist; this resulted in the resignation of the Point of Ayr Collieries from the Coalowners' Association.

During my visit to the district last autumn, I realised that the situation was becoming worse, and I was seriously perturbed as to the effect it would have on production in the whole district. Since then I have kept in constant touch with my Regional Controller in the North Western area. His reports showed quite clearly that the situation was becoming steadily worse. I further received in the middle of January last a confidential report from Sir John Forster, who had been appointed, at my request, by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service to make an independent investigation. Sir John came to the conclusion that if the causes of the friction were not removed there might be trouble throughout the North Wales coalfield. Accordingly it became my duty to consider whether this situation might not seriously affect the production of coal. I decided that having regard to all the history of this matter there was no means of bringing the friction to an end, other than by taking control of the undertaking under Defence Regulation 55 (4). While I am willing at any time to consider removing the control, I must first be satisfied that the danger to the war effort, which led me to impose it, has been removed and will not recur. I am not so satisfied at present.

My attention has been called to the comments of Mr. Justice Singleton. I was advised that as the Courts had no jurisdiction to consider the reasonableness of my Order, and as my responsibility in this matter was to Parliament, and in particular to this House, it would not be correct, either legally or constitutionally, for evidence to be submitted to the Court as to my reasons for making this Order. A submission to this effect was made to Mr. Justice Singleton by the Solicitor-General and no evidence was therefore called on my behalf. The learned Judge decided the case in my favour, on the ground that I was the responsible person and that I had the right to make this Order. Mr. Justice Singleton's comments on my conduct were, therefore, made in the absence of any evidence on my behalf and it is, I think, right that I should add that the learned Judge made it clear that these comments were outside his province in the case.

Mr. Rowlands

Is it not a fact that the relationships between the employers and the employees have been most cordial at this colliery and that there has been no stoppage there since 1926, which is unique not only in the history of this region but in the history of pits throughout the whole country?

Major Lloyd George

That has nothing to do with the point I made, which was that there are in this colliery a large number of men who belong to a union and who desire the same rights at this colliery as are available in every other colliery throughout the country. My only interest is to see that everybody is treated alike.

Mr. Simmonds

Will my right hon. and gallant Friend really tell us specifically what was the reason for this action?

Major Lloyd George

If my hon. Friend will read my answer to-morrow, he will find the reason there, and that is the only reason, and I have nothing to add to what I have said.

Mr. Austin Hopkinson

Will my right hon. and gallant Friend tell us in what specific cases this colliery company has not provided facilities for the Miners' Federation?

Major Lloyd George

I could not do that by means of question and answer, but I can assure my hon. Friend that I have given more attention to this matter than to any other single administrative item since I have been in the Department, I could give many instances where there have been both discourtesy and provocation.

Mr. Colegate

Can my right hon. and gallant Friend give us the percentage of the men concerned whom he referred to as a large number?

Major Lloyd George

It is an increasing number, and I will say that at this moment it is over 50 per cent. of those engaged in colliery work.

Mr. Molson

Are we to understand from the Minister's reply, contrary to what has been stated, that the management of that pit had an opportunity of making representations to the Minister before he availed himself of this power?

Major Lloyd George

They have had plenty of opportunity over a good many years, and I can assure my hon. Friend that of all the people concerned in this dispute no one knows the reason for this action better than does the colliery management.

Sir John Mellor

Was not the Minister's action entirely contrary to the intention of the Regulation, even if it was within the legal limits?

Major Lloyd George

No, Sir. The purpose of making this Regulation was to safeguard the safety of the Realm and to ensure that supplies were not endangered. I was satisfied, after the most careful consideration, that supplies would be endangered if some action was not taken.

Mr. Rowlands

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.