HC Deb 06 April 1943 vol 388 cc522-4
Mr. Craik Henderson (Leeds North East)

I beg to move, in page II, line 38, after "with," to insert "any business or."

I move this Amendment in order that we may have explained why, if this Measure is to apply to civilian workers employed "by or on behalf of the Crown" in connection with any industrial undertaking its beneficent provisions are not 10 apply to civilian workers employed by the Government in other respects. Is there any particular reason for this?

The Solicitor-General (Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe)

The point raised by my hon. Friend has given us considerable anxiety, and we have directed special attention to it. As will be seen from the Clause, we wish to cover civilian workers but not to cover Services. My hon. Friend will appreciate that we do not want to cover the National Fire Service or the Civil Defence Reserve. If my hon. Friend has in mind certain special difficulties, such as the question of the State management districts or certain canteens, I can give him the undertaking—and I think it is a matter which can suitably be dealt with by undertaking—on behalf of my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Labour, that they all agree that these matters should, in principle, be covered and that these conditions should apply to them. My hon. Friend has, I know, considered this Bill very carefully, and he will appreciate the difficulty of finding the exact words in which to express that intention, but as I have clearly stated the line we desire to draw we think our words are most apt to draw that line, I think my hon. Friend can rest assured that they cover his point.

Major Petherick

I am not sure whether it is appropriate on this Clause to ask whether local authorities are covered.

The Solicitor-General

Local authorities are covered to the extent that has been laid down, but I understand that this question may arise for discussion on another point, and I suggest that we should not go into it at this stage. My hon. and gallant Friend can rest assured that they are covered to the extent to which they are carrying on catering activities.

Captain P. Macdonald

Is it not a fact that unless this Amendment is made, establishments in Carlisle and other places under the State management scheme will be exempt from this Measure?

The Solicitor-General

I have expressly dealt with that point and given an undertaking to the effect that they would be dealt with by the machinery in the Bill. I explained that whether the words "industrial, undertaking" actually cover that kind of business is a matter for discussion, but the intention of the Government—and I think it is an appropriate matter to be dealt with by undertaking—is that they should be covered and will be covered.

Mr. Rhys Davies (Westhoughton)

Is it intended to bring in an Amendment at a later stage to cover this point, which is very important?

The Solicitor-General

I wanted to make it clear that we quite agreed on the difficulty of finding the exact words, but we think that these are the best words, coupled with the undertaking which I have given on behalf of the three Ministers concerned. If my hon. Friend or any other hon. Member can suggest any improvement, I shall be pleased to consider it, but, having given my consideration to the point, I think these are the best words we can find.

Mr. Craik Henderson

I appreciate what the learned Solicitor-General has said. Personally, I am doubtful whether these are the appropriate words, but in view of my hon. and learned Friend's conciliatory and helpful attitude and in the hope that between now and the next stage of the proceedings on the Bill some more appropriate words may be found, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.