HC Deb 08 May 1941 vol 371 cc1046-50
Mr. Edmund Harvey (Combined English Universities)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 27, to leave out the words "or capital."

This Amendment, I regret, has only been put in in manuscript form. My hon. Friend the Member for Bilston (Mr. Hannah) and myself wished to put it down in the belief that the Bill was coming on next week. Its object is to secure from the President of the Board an assurance that every care will be taken to provide that capital shall be replaced if it be used in consequence of a scheme to be carried through under the provisions of the Bill. It is quite obvious that the use of income in a war-time emergency stands on an entirely different footing from the use of capital, and while there is everything to be said for diverting income that is not likely to be profitably used during the war to an urgent need of the school, it is very undesirable that capital should be used in that way unless very careful provision is made for its replacement over a period of years during the happier days of peace-time. I think that would be an object which would commend itself to everybody who believes it to be desirable to continue the trusts under which capital is held, and I hope that the President may see his way to give an assurance to the Committee that in all cases where a scheme is prepared, provision will be made for the replacement of capital to be used under the terms of this scheme, although, of course, that replacement may take place, in some cases, over a long perod of years. I do not wish to take up the time of the Committee, but I hope very much that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give an assurance of that kind.

The President of the Board of Education (Mr. Ramsbotham)

I am certain the hon. Member does not expect me to accept the Amendment as it stands, but I am very willing to assure him, as far as I can, on the point he has in mind, which is, of course, of considerable importance. Indeed, in my speech on the Second Reading of the Bill I said that I was sure the House would agree with me that it would be most undesirable to spend trust capital on current needs unless that capital could be replaced. There are various safeguards in the Bill which make it very difficult improperly or rashly to use capital without an opportunity being given to the House to raise objections. I can assure my hon. Friend that I will bear his point carefully in mind. I do not think these occasions for the use of capital will be very numerous, but where they do arise they will be subject to very careful consideration.

Mr. Harvey

In view of that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

Mr. A. Bevan (Ebbw Vale)

I am sorry that a better opportunity was not afforded for us to make one or two Amendments on the Committee stage. It is quite clear, from the Ruling we had last week, that our opportunities for Debate would be very much curtailed. So far as I am concerned, I can only say that if one agrees with the principle of the Bill, the Bill itself is an effective instrument to achieve that purpose; and I had no special occasion to want to put down Amendments in Committee. As I tried to make clear last week, I do not sympathise with the general purposes of the Bill. It is not my intention, however, to be obstructive at this stage.

There is a great deal of feeling about this matter. Anyone who has studied the controversy in educational journals during the last six months will know that there is a large body of opinion that the time has arrived for the public schools of Great Britain to be drastically remodelled. I hope that that opinion will soon find expression in pressure upon the Government. I do not agree that these are things that ought necessarily to be left until after the war. There are very grave reasons why they should be dealt with during the war. One of the main reasons why the public schools of Great Britain should be reorganised is that that would reassure people that desirable changes are taking place in the social structure of Great Britain. That would be a contribution to the maintenance of morale behind the war effort. There is also a great body of opinion, which is not sufficiently articulate, that the public schools should be allowed to die a natural death. Some would like them to die a little more violently.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Clifton Brown)

I must remind the hon. Member that we are discussing what is in the Bill, and not what should be there.

Mr. Bevan

I agree that the discussion on the Third Reading is bound to be much narrower than that on the Second Reading. It was impossible to discuss the Bill on the Second Reading, and our difficulties are bound to be greater now. I appreciate that; and I shall not come into conflict with your Ruling, Sir, for a moment. As I said on the Second Reading, it appears to be more in order to praise this Bill than to condemn it. But I hope that the Government will seek an early opportunity of meeting a representative body of educational opinion on this matter—which has not been done, I regret to say, on this occasion—and try to bring about a reconstruction of the public schools system in accordance with civilised and intelligent needs.

Sir Annesley Somerville (Windsor)

I sympathise with my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) in his inability to discuss the possibility of keeping the public schools alive. He has spoken of their dying a natural death. I should not be surprised if he would like to see them die a violent death. This Bill is of narrow scope, and he is precluded from starting an argument, in which I should have been delighted to take part, as to the merits or otherwise of the public schools. This is a limited Measure, to give public schools power to apply capital which is extremely necessary for their continued existence. That capital, as provided by a number of benevolent well-wishers and well-doers of the schools, might be very well disposed of in accordance with the terms of the Bill. I happen to be one of the governors of a school which has a number of trusts that have been provided for it from various sources. I am sure that the donors of the money would have been only too glad that this Bill should pass, and that the school, which is doing very useful work, should have power to apply the money to immediate and pressing needs. I welcome the Bill, which I think will be of very considerable use to the public schools.

Mr. Ammon (Camberwell, North)

I apologise for not having been present to move the Amendment standing on the Paper in my name—in Clause 1, page 2, line 28, at the end, to insert: " (together with a statement of accounts giving all the information necessary to determine whether the making of an Order in Council or an order is expedient). To a large extent I have been hoist with my own petard, for I have been upstairs in Committee, and had arranged for the Debate to be kept running until I got reinforcements, but forgot to arrange for myself to be here. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), I found considerable difficulty in discussing the Bill on Second Reading, and it will not be easier for me on the Third Reading. I know that it will be very difficult to make any reference to an Amendment which has not been moved. Therefore, I shall content myself—and I think this might be within the rules of Order—by asking the Minister to say whether he is likely, administratively, to meet the point raised in the Amendment.

Mr. Ramsbotham

Much as I sympathise with the hon. Member, I am very chary of replying to the last request, because I am not sure whether I should be in Order. But, before you have time to pull me up, Sir, I might just inform my hon. Friend that I shall not be able to give a satisfactory reply to what he is asking. The Bill. broadly speaking, will be welcomed by those who—

Mr. Bevan

Welcome it.

Mr. Ramsbotham

Yes. I do not include among those my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale. Later on, I hope, he will have an opportunity of expressing his views about the public school system. Nothing would give me greater delight than to be able to cross swords with him on one or two points arising out of that, but that will not be possible now. I thank the House for the reception which has been given to the Bill.

Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.