§ 19. Dr. Haden Guestasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he proposes to take to secure the better organisation of street fire parties; and whether he will insure that volunteers for this service will be issued with steel helmets, as was promised by the Regional authorities on 9th January, 1941?
§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison)The organisation of such parties according to local requirements has been entrusted to local authorities, who are responsible for the administration of Civil Defence services in their areas. General guidance has already been given to them, and I shall continue to give it in the light of experience gained either generally or locally. 547 In regard to the latter part of the Question, I would refer to the Reply given on 27th March to my hon. Friend the Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant).
Dr. GuestThe Minister does not seem to understand that local authorities are directed by precise instructions which limit their powers, and that the original instructions issued have been so hedged about that they have produced what almost amounts to a revolt among a large number of people in the London area. These people say that these conditions are unfair and amount to a breach of faith, and will the Minister not take some action, as he is the responsible person, to organise this service adequately, so that it will function properly?
§ Mr. MorrisonI am not sure that I see any need for so much heat. Directions have been given, but I gather that the controversy arises in this way. The local authority say they will give the degree of protection under the Civil Liabilities Act, and that they will supply equipment to fire parties, to those who officially sign on to the scheme, but some people do not want to serve anywhere except in their own streets. I can understand that feeling, but, on the other hand, we must have power to place fire-bomb parties where they are needed, according to the number of people available and the amount of property to be protected. I think that is the fundamental point in dispute.
§ Sir William DavisonIs the Minister aware that there is a considerable number of women who have volunteered for this service who are prepared to do fire watching in their own street, but who do not desire to go to another part of the town which they do not know?
§ Mr. MorrisonI will consider that point, but the House must face the fact that if property is to be protected against fire, we must have people where they are needed. We cannot run this war on the basis of everyone deciding in which particular street he will serve.
Dr. GuestI cannot accept this as an adequate explanation of a very serious situation, and I would press to be allowed to ask a further supplementary question.
§ Mr. SpeakerEveryone is always dissatisfied with the answer he gets. We 548 have a great many Questions on the Order Paper, and we must get on.
20. Dr. Guestasked the Home Secretary what steps he proposes to take to change the anomalous situation in which the same fire-fighters may be eligible for Civil Defence rates of compensation for death or injury in one area and not in another?
§ Mr. MorrisonIf my hon. Friend has particular cases in mind, perhaps he will give me details.
Dr. GuestIs not the Minister aware that he is asking residents in my own constituency, for whom I am speaking at the moment, to do fire watching when they have already undertaken to do it at their places of business? Is he aware that he is refusing the compensation which they get when working in their business premises when they fire watch in their streets? Is not that a ridiculous example of the bad organisation of the fire-fighting service?
§ Mr. MorrisonThe hon. Member is in a very fierce mood to-day.
§ Mr. SpeakerWe must pass on to the next Question.
§ 27. Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the Home Secretary whether he is satisfied with the present system of fire fighting under the Regional scheme, and whether he is aware that on many occasions great confusion and hardships have resulted when assistance has been called in by an attacked city?
§ Mr. H. MorrisonI am aware that some difficulties have arisen, but the Regional scheme is, on the whole, fulfilling the object for which it was designed. It is being revised, as more pumps can now be made available, and the arrangements for handling the reinforcements have been developed and improved, in the light of experience, in many areas in order to meet any grounds for criticism which may have become apparent.
§ Rear-Admiral BeamishDoes not the solution really lie in a much more uniform handling of this great menace of fire?
§ Mr. MorrisonIt may be, but there is history behind it under which uniformity is not so easy to apply.
§ 29. Sir Percy Hurdasked the Home Secretary what arrangements he has now been able to make to ensure that night fire watchers have reasonable refreshment facilities?
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George)I have been asked to reply to this Question. I am at present unable to add to my reply on this matter to my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 23rd April.
§ Sir P. HurdIs the suggestion of mobile canteens being considered
Major Lloyd GeorgeI cannot say that it is being considered in respect of this particular aspect, because most of our mobile canteens are required for other purposes, but the extension of existing canteen facilities is being considered.
§ Mr. ManderHow long will it be before the right hon. Gentleman comes to a decision, in view of the fact that thousands of fire watchers in works are not even allowed to have tea?
Major Lloyd GeorgeThere is nothing to prevent existing works canteens providing a certain amount for these fire watchers.
§ Mr. ManderAre we to understand that existing canteens can draw a ration for fire watchers?
§ 32. Sir W. Davisonasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the shortage of steel helmets supplied to the Kensington Air Raid Precautions Committee, especially for the fire-watching service, less than one-third of the number applied for having so far reached the committee; and what steps he is taking to expedite further deliveries?
§ Mr. MorrisonMy hon. Friend will appreciate that it is impossible to meet the full demands of all local authorities simultaneously. The first instalment of helmets recommended by the Region was for half of what Kensington, asked for, and these have been supplied. Another instalment is being supplied at an early date. Further supplies will be sent as soon as 550 the Region has ascertained the number of members of fire parties who have given the necessary undertaking of service.
§ Sir W. DavisonDoes the right hon. Gentleman realise that, where there are no helmets available, people, many of them women, are not prepared to go to other parts of London with which they are not familiar, while they are prepared to guard their own streets?
§ Mr. MorrisonThere must be some check somewhere. One cannot issue steel helmets at will and on application. It is not unreasonable that there should be registration by local authorities. On the question of the supply, in view of the fairly recent development of the demand for fire-bomb fighting, I think the Ministry of Supply has done a very fine job in producing the quantities it has at great speed.
Dr. GuestIf it is a fact that there must be a check on the issue of steel helmets, why did the right hon. Gentleman issue a circular promising them to all fire fighters in January? That is one of the great causes of the difficulty.
§ Mr. MorrisonWe must know who the volunteer is, and there must be some registration, otherwise there would be no check at all. The hon. Member is wrong in assuming that there was an unconditional promise to issue steel helmets to any who asked for them.
Dr. GuestDoes not the right hon. Gentleman know that the promise was made and that no condition was attached?
§ 30. Mr. Manderasked the Home Secretary what action he is taking to compel owners of houses and flats, who have left them empty to find safer lodgings elsewhere, to play their part in fire watching, either by personal service or by paying for a substitute?
§ 37. Mr. Mortasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware in many towns which have been bombed it has become a custom for people with means of transport and wealth to leave the area each night, thereby leaving their houses and business premises unprotected and placing an extra burden upon those who remain who take up the duty of fire-watching; and whether he is prepared to make it compulsory that these people should either remain or make provision for fire-watching of their homes or business premises?
§ Mr. MorrisonI-would refer my hon. Friends to the Reply which I gave on 24th April to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett).
§ Mr. ManderCan the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that persons who have left the neighbourhood will either have to watch personally or pay for a substitute? That is not being done at present.
§ Mr. MorrisonThe second is not a practical solution. If one contemplates the enormous employment of full - time fire watchers for residential property, one is contemplating something which, in the present labour situation, we could not live up to. On the other point, there are many difficulties in compelling people to come back from a distance, some of whom may have gone away in the national interest, but there are cases where people are coming back voluntarily to do their firebomb duty, and I hope that many will feel it their duty to do so, but it would be difficult administratively to apply compulsion.
§ Mr. MortMy question was based on a voluntary system. Most streets are organised on a voluntary basis, and people who do a day's work are prepared to go fire watching while others who can afford it can go out of the town.
§ Mr. MorrisonNo, the obligation is on the occupier.
§ Mr. MorrisonBut it is so, and there were reasons why it should be so.
§ Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Thomas MooreWill the right hon. Gentleman make it public that local authorities have a right to prosecute owners of property who fail to carry out their responsibility as fire watchers?
§ Mr. MorrisonNo, not the owners, but the local authority can make compulsory schemes, and the initiative is in their hands. If they wish to go in for compulsory enrolment, the proposal will always receive sympathetic consideration.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerWill my right hon. Friend consider the very successful scheme which has been organised at Coventry in recent weeks?
§ Mr. MorrisonI will consider that.