HC Deb 27 February 1941 vol 369 cc639-43
Mr. Lees-Smith

May I ask what the forthcoming Business will be?

Mr. Attlee

The Second Reading of the House of Commons Disqualification (Temporary Provisions) Bill is being taken to-day, and it is proposed to take the Committee and remaining stages on the first Sitting Day next ensuing.

On the second Sitting Day we propose to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates, 1941, and to consider Votes A, 1, and Navy Supplementary Estimate in Committee; and

On the third Sitting Day we propose to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on the Army Estimates, 1941, and to consider Votes A, 1, and Army Supplementary Estimate in Committee.

Mr. Shinwell

Has my right hon. Friend consulted the Prime Minister on the question of a Debate on shipping and shipbuilding?

Mr. Attlee

I am afraid there will be no time for that.

Mr. Shinwell

Is not the subject one of extreme importance to the whole war situation, and are we not to have an opportunity of discussing it in private or in public so that we may know how we stand and at the same time be afforded an opportunity of offering some constructive proposals?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill)

The question of the time of the House must be considered. There is a great deal of Business that we must get through. If it is the desire of the House to have a Debate, obviously it can only take place in secret.

Earl Winterton

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider in connection with this matter whether the old method of arranging Business through the usual channels is not now completely out of date in view of the fact that there is no regular Opposition, and if, in respect to a matter like this, there is a general desire indifferent quarters of the House for a Debate, will he give prior consideration to it over other questions which may be put through the ordinary usual channels?

The Prime Minister

Of course, the Government is composed of all the political parties in the House, who have signified their loyalty to it. The focus of opposition has not yet become precisely defined. If a sufficient body of Gentlemen constituted themselves an Opposition, they could be definitely recognised as such, and we should know where and who they were, and special facilities would no doubt be extended.

Earl Winterton

Is it necessary to have an Opposition to do that? Surely if there is a general wish for a Debate, those who have that wish can express it without constituting themselves an Opposition.

The Prime Minister

The Whips of the different parties do endeavour to ascertain the opinion of the House as a whole and not merely of those who work on the basis of an Opposition. I am not aware that anything has arisen which renders their functions inoperative, but it might be in the event of the emergence of a definite Opposition that we would have to reconsider the present arrangements.

Mr. Shinwell

If we might for a moment escape from the academic question of an Opposition, might we know the right hon. Gentleman's view on the subject of a Debate in secret, as he suggests, before Easter?

The Prime Minister

I shall have to go into the question of the Business that we have to get through before Easter. The House is aware that we have a lot of work to get through. The Debate could not possibly take place in public.

Sir I. Albery

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that articles appearing in the Press have stirred up public anxiety and therefore it is desirable to ventilate the subject, if necessary in Secret Session?

Mr. Mander

With regard to the Business before us to-day, may I ask whether there is to be a free vote of all parties supporting the Government, or is it to be a free vote for one party only?

The Prime Minister

The Government regard the Division on this Bill as a matter of confidence.

Mr. Shinwell

Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman, having consulted the Lord Privy Seal and having been made aware of the decision of the Labour Party, regards this as a matter of confidence?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir, certainly. Those who have no confidence in the Government will have full liberty so to testify in the Lobby.

Mr. Shinwell

Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman has elevated the question which has arisen out of the appointment of the right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. M. MacDonald) as High Commissioner in Canada to a question which is to be regarded as a matter of confidence in the Government? May we not repose our confidence in the Government and at the same time be free to express our opinions on a matter of this kind?

The Prime Minister

If this Bill were not acceded to by the House, very great inconvenience would arise to the war effort of the country. [Hon. Members: "No."] That is my opinion. If there is a desire to bring matters to the test, the House is perfectly free to have every opportunity of expressing itself.

Sir Percy Harris

Is it not one thing to have a free discussion, as we shall have to-day, and quite an other thing to vote against the Government?

Mr. A. Bevan

Would it not be desirable for the right hon. Gentleman to postpone his decision upon this matter until he has had an opportunity of hearing the Debate? Will he consider this point also? I understand that the Debate is being opened by the Attorney-General. Would it not have been more desirable for the House to have been put in possession of the Prime Minister's views at the beginning of the Debate?

The Prime Minister

I do not think it will be possible to postpone a decision whether the Government regard this as a vote of confidence or not until the Debate is reaching its conclusion. That would not be fair to hon. Gentlemen who are making up their minds what course they should take. With regard to the order of speakers in the Debate, it has always been the rule to allow the Government some latitude in the choice of those they put up.

Major Sir Edward Cadogan

Will there be any further opportunity to discuss the physical reconstruction of town and country after the war?

Mr. Attlee

It is proposed that a discussion on that subject will take place on the Report stage of the Civil Vote on Account.

Commander Sir Archibald Southby

May I ask whether the reply given to me yesterday by the Lord Privy Seal that the Prime Minister has no intention of having a secret discussion on the question of the administration of the bases leased to the United States was based on the question of time, or whether there was any other reason? Has my right hon. Friend considered the point that in view of the fact that the House of Commons is the custodian of the Empire, it is right that no final decision should be come to until the House has been told exactly what the position is? I entirely support the right hon. Gentleman in arranging the leasing of these bases, but there is a feeling in the House and the country that the representatives of the people should be told what is being done with the British Empire when bases are being given to the United States.

The Prime Minister

I do not think it will be desirable to have a Debate on this subject at the present time. I must really emphasise the fact that there is a war on.