CLAUSE 33. —(Property held for charitable purposes.) (Hansard, 25 February 1941)

§ The Solicitor-General (Sir William Jowitt)
I beg to move, in page 24, line 35, after "education," to insert "learning,"
The purpose of this Amendment is to meet a request made to us by the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) to improve the literary flavour of the Bill. We can hardly resist this request, coming from such a quarter.

§ Mr. R. Morgan (Stourbridge)
I beg to move, in page 25, line 4, to leave out "science."
I move this Amendment in order to extract a statement from the Chancellor. Scientific bodies are very jealous of their rights, and they feel that they cannot possibly accept all that is implied by the conditions referred to in this Clause in connection with the decisions of tribunals of whose constitution they have no knowledge. I have been asked by some of these societies to put the following points to the Chancellor. Does it mean that the tribunals will decide what shall be the site of a school, and that they can alter the State grants to a school? Will they have any authority in altering places, the curriculum and the appointment of staff? We tried, at an earlier stage, to obtain an exemption from contributions, but I understand that that is impossible. Another point I wish to put to the Chancellor is that if any of these bodies are dissatisfied with the conditions imposed upon them by the tribunals, is it possible for them to have retrospective payments?

§ Sir K. Wood
We did not have an opportunity to look at this Amendment until this morning. We understood that it sought to eliminate from the charity Clause charities for the advancement of science whereas charities for the advancement of education, learning and research are to be retained. I am not very clear what my hon. Friend has in mind. I would say at once, however, that so far as I am concerned I would not ask the Committee to accept this Amendment. I think possibly my hon. Friend is more concerned to obtain an assurance than to suggest that it would be fair or right for the charities concerned to be treated first under the provisions of this Clause and then to be able to say we do not like this very 423 much so may we start all over again under the earlier provisions of the Bill. I cannot contemplate procedure of that kind, but I think my hon. Friend can be assured that these authorities will be treated with fairness and consideration. There will be consultations between the Commission and those concerned, and I do not think he need have any apprehension about the matter. In practice I do not anticipate that there will be difficulties such as my hon. Friend represents. I hope with that explanation he will not press the Amendment further.

§ Sir K. Wood
I beg to move, in page 25, line 22, at the end, to insert: (including, in the case of an interest in respect of which there is a one-third net liability for contribution, the owner thereof). This deals with a point raised in Committee by the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn), who wanted it to be secured that in the case of an educational charity the Commission should consult the owner of the contributory interest before making their decision as to payment. This ensures that that should be done.

§ Mr. Edmund Harvey (Combined English Universities)
The Chancellor's concession will give considerable satisfaction.

§ Sir K. Wood
I beg to move, in page 25, line 41, at the end, to insert: (6) A proprietary interest held—
(a)by a body having power to levy a rate or to issue a precept to a rating authority, for purposes for which it has that power;

(b)by a government department, for purposes for which public moneys may be applied; or

(c)by any person, for purposes the expense of the execution of which is defrayed wholly out of moneys being either moneys raised by rates or public moneys;
shall not be treated for the purposes of this Section as held for charitable purposes. This Amendment again meets a suggestion put by hon. Friends opposite and behind me, and it excludes from the pro- 424 visions of the Clause charity land held by rating authorities, and Government Departments for purposes for which public moneys may be applied, or by other persons for purposes the expense of which is defrayed out of rates or public moneys. Charity lands in these categories will accordingly pay full contribution and get the ordinary rights of compensation under Part I of the Bill. Examples of the three categories are respectively local authorities' relief administrations and schools; Unemployment Assistance; and approved schools managed by voluntary bodies, but financed half by local authorities and half by the State. Of course, the justification of this exceptional treatment is that the charities in this position are only charities by accident. They are in effect public social services, and their essential nature is proved by the fact that their expenditure is met out of rates and taxes. For that reason I felt able to meet my hon. Friends in the way I have done.

§ Mr. Woodburn (Stirling and Clackmannan, Eastern)
Has the right hon. Gentleman ascertained that it is possible to exempt schools run for poor children, maintained by charities and local authorities? Are they covered by the powers in the Bill?

§ Captain Crookshank
It all depends on the facts relating to each of the individual nursery schools. Some will probably come within the Clause, others will not. It all depends on the circumstances of the individual case.

§ Mr. Woodburn
So you have power to exempt them?

§ Captain Crookshank
If they are within the definition, yes.