HC Deb 18 February 1941 vol 369 cc86-92

MINISTRY OF WORKS AND BUILDINGS.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £ 10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Works and Buildings."

Mr. Lawson (Chester-le-Street)

The Committee will be well aware that this is the first time that the Vote concerning this new Department has been discussed in the House of Commons. The Ministry of Works and Buildings has absorbed what was previously known as the Office of Works, and this will be the first time that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry has had to give an account of his Department. I believe that the Committee would like me to say that we welcome his appointment as the Minister responsible to this House for that Department. He brings to the Department a knowledge and experience of a great craft, and wide administrative knowledge of the building trades in general. He knows all the virtues of the craft and its difficulties. I am sure that the Committee will agree that perhaps one of the most popular appointments that have been made has been the appointment of my hon. Friend to this Department.

In the ordinary course of things this would have been one of the most important Debates in connection with the Estimates, but it will be remembered that last week my right hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Lees-Smith) stated that as far as we were concerned the Debate would be limited, and that we would look to another date to have what is known as a full-dress Debate upon this Ministry. There is a good deal to be said about the conditions under which it has been set up, and the general statement that was made by the Lord Privy Seal, but all this can wait until another Debate. Much was said in another place about what was expected of the Ministry of Works and Buildings, and I believe it was expected that the Ministry was going to deal with a whole mass of things which really had nothing to do with such a Department, and which was never in the mind of the Government when the Depart- ment was set up. Therefore, I propose to leave aside planning and all the other functions which the Ministry was supposed to have attached to it, and put one simple question to my hon. Friend.

Everybody knows that one of the difficulties to-day is that masses of people are being shut out of their houses because of bombing. Some of the houses are merely damaged; they are not habitable but can be made habitable. It may be that at some stage or other there may come a lull when rebuilding can be attended to as far as these houses are concerned. Most people wonder what is to be the procedure for the repairing of houses. I do not know whether this has to do directly with the Department of my hon. Friend, but I think that at least he can inform the Committee exactly the relationship of the Ministry of Works and Buildings to this question. At any rate, the Ministry has to deal with the control of the material for building, and I think that that is where it comes in most vitally. Those who have seen the destruction of these houses and those which need repairing would be much moved if they could understand how the people concerned are heartened if they are told that material will be available for the purpose of rebuilding or repairing their houses. I can remember, in the early stages of the blitz, seeing a number of houses that had been laid down in respect of which the controller of material was in a position at the time to say that materials would be set aside for the purpose of repairing such houses, and realising how heartened the people were when they found that that could be done, because the general impression was that nothing of the kind could be done with the material available.

I shall be glad if my hon. Friend can tell us of the procedure in regard to the houses in various parts of the country that have either been destroyed or are in such a condition that they can be made habitable. It would be an advantage to the Committee, and to the country generally, if the simple story could be told of the procedure that a householder has to take in order that his damaged house can be repaired. Can my hon. Friend tell us, for instance, what is the organisation of the Department, as far as the representatives of the Ministry are concerned in the country, for the control of the necessary material and making it available to the people who need it? If he would give a simple description of what has been done, I think it would be of considerable value to the people in this country. I will not enter into the extent to which they are controlling material, or how far that control is going. That is a matter which will come up in the future Debate, which, I expect, will occupy a whole day. I will not enter into the question of general building after the war; that, too, will come up in the future Debate, but if the hon. Gentleman will answer as simply as possible the questions I have put to him, it will be of great value to householders, the country in general and probably to Members of this House who are very much interested in planning for immediate needs, following the suffering they have gone through as a result of bombing.

Mrs. Tate (Frome)

I do not wish to detain the Committee at this moment, but I think it is very important that we should know whether we are embarking on the rebuilding of houses which have been destroyed or on rebuilding a better Britain from the point of view of better houses and better planned towns. I sincerely hope that, where there has been large-scale destruction, as in Coventry, Bristol and some other towns, we shall have sufficient vision to plan that every house, for instance, should have hot water and central heating from a main supply and that we should have the most progressive and modernised methods of refuse disposal.

I wish to add that there has been published in the Press new appointments to the Ministry of Works and Buildings— directors and deputies under Lord Reith. I think it is unfortunate, when we are dealing with the rebuilding of houses and towns, that not one woman should have been appointed to help advise. I do not think anyone who has really studied the planning of houses and towns can say that we have very much to be satisfied with in recent years. If we are to build practical houses which will be happy, healthy homes, I think there is definite need to have the advice of at least one woman.

Viscountess Astor (Plymouth, Sutton)

I would like to know whether this Committee is for the rebuilding of temporary houses or permanent houses? If it is for permanent houses, I think it is nothing short of a disgrace that you have not some women on it. I know this Government, like all others, pays lip-service to women, and when it comes to the building of houses it is really madness not to consult them. I saw the other day that a local authority had built some new houses in which there were three different types of heating apparatus. That is the kind of thing men will go on doing unless they are advised by women. I do not say that their wives should advise men— not all women are practical—but a great many are practical, and when the Government set up a Committee of such importance as this, they should see that they get some women on it.

I have lately seen a large hostel built at enormous cost on the lines of the War Office. I wish you could see that hostel, with its waste of space, bricks and money. It is colossal, but nothing was done about it because such jobs have always been done like that. If we are to build a. better Britain, I hope it will not be done in the same old way. The Government should have one woman, if not more, on this Committee, and if there is to be a woman chosen, let the women choose her them selves. I have come to the conclusion that where men choose a woman, they always choose a "Yes, yes" woman, who is no good. A woman should stimulate you, provoke you, and bring out what is the best in you. The Parliamentary Secretary himself has a wife, whom I had the pleasure of meeting the other day, and I hope that he of all men will see that practical women have a say in this new land we are to build. People now are talking about a braver and better Britain, but I do not see that it will be any better than in their fathers' time. I say that we can build a much better world if this House of Commons, which is mainly elected by women —

The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Clifton Brown)

I must remind the Noble Lady that we are talking about the Ministry of Works and not about elections to the House of Commons.

Viscountess Astor

This Department was the last to be appointed by the House of Commons, and that is why I was talking about it. The Members here are elected by women's votes, and I hope that women will get their fair share of any opportunities.

Mr. Lindsay

I rise only to ask a question and also primarily to congratulate my hon. Friend before he makes his maiden speech as a Minister. We are, I believe, to have a Debate on this subject in the future, and at present there is considerable apprehension among a number of people that the line between the hon. Gentleman's Ministry and the Ministry presided over by the Minister without Portfolio is not very clearly drawn. I am a little apprehensive about what my hon. Friend beside me said about criticism made in another House about Lord Reith's functions, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to tell us that the position will be stated in the big Debate to come.

Mr. Lawson

What I meant was that it had been assumed in another place that the functions of the Ministry would include at that time those that are now allotted to the Ministry of Reconstruction.

Mr. Lindsay

Those remarks show only too clearly the considerable aprehension which is felt within this House, let alone outside. When the next Debate comes along we shall press the point strongly.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings (Mr. Hicks)

First, let me say how much I thank the Committee for the generous attitude they have shown towards the Supplementary Estimate, having, as they had, in the back of their minds the knowledge that there will be an opportunity later for an extended Debate on the scope and functions of the Ministry of Works and Buildings. I think the present arrangements are that the Debate will take place as soon as it can be conveniently arranged through the ordinary channels. As there will be an opportunity for a full Debate, I do not intend to go into the matter at too great length on this Supplementary Estimate.

I wish to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) for the generous remarks he made about me. I could not help feeling it was a pity that more hon. Members were not present to listen to them, but those hon. Members who read the Official Report will see the very kind things which my hon. Friend said. He asked a question about houses that have suffered from the blitz, and the position of my Department in that matter. When the Debate takes place, I shall be able to state in general and in detail the organisation of the Department and the type of assistance that is given; but fundamentally, the position is that if a house is at all habitable, it is the task of the local authority to see that it is repaired. If the local authority feels that it is unequal to the task, my Department has a supplementary labour force which gives assistance, as it is doing at the present time in many London boroughs and in some towns in the Midlands and the North. The reports that are received indicate how very pleased the local authorities are with this supplementary help. The materials are controlled through the Ministry of Works and Buildings, and the local authorities can give sanction for repairs up to a certain amount. I have stated in the House, in reply to Questions, that it is not proposed to rebuild houses that have been very severely damaged. Some houses have received damage to such an extent that it would require a considerable amount effectively to restore them, and in such cases it is not proposed to restore them; but in cases where the damage can be brought within a reasonable proportion of first-aid repairs, it is the task and duty not only of the local authorities but of my Department to render immediately all assistance that can be given to put such houses in repair. The organisation that we have is the emergency services, our own offices and the local authorities. I will deal with this more extensively when the full Debate takes place and when the scope and functions of the Department are under more critical examination.

The hon. Lady the Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate) asked questions—which I am sure she will agree would be better dealt with in the full Debate—as to the work of re-building, the proposals which my noble Friend has in mind and the consultations that will take place in order to try to get the best understanding of the difficulties that we are likely to encounter when we attempt to put into effect what the hon. Lady so admirably expressed, the re-building of a better and brighter Britain. The Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Vis- countess Astor) was not quite sure whether we shall have the young men capable of building a Britain as beautiful as some of us would like to see it. I can assure her that at the Ministry of Works and Buildings we are all ears— it is not merely a question of lip-service—and that we ask for, and listen to, all the advice which the women of the country can give us. We want to see whether that advice can be fitted into the picture so that we may build better houses for our people.

Viscountess Astor

Does this mean that there will not be a single woman on the committee?

Mr. Hicks

I have not said that a committee has been established. If the noble Lady will read the announcement in the Press she will see that it is a question of appointing officers to various Departments, and not a committee. My noble Friend has in mind the question of consultations with ladies, whether single or married.

Viscountess Astor

I said capable women.

Mr. Hicks

That is the type we would like to have.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £ 10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Works and Buildings.