HC Deb 06 February 1941 vol 368 cc1060-4
20. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Home Secretary whether, in schemes of compulsory fire-watching he will see that reasonable protection is afforded the fire-watchers, particularly for young and elderly people; and, in view of the possibility of explosive bombs being dropped at the same time, or shortly after, incendiaries, whether he will deprecate the employment of young or elderly people for this purpose when this can be avoided; and whether fire-watching schemes will always be subordinate to the direction of the local air-raid precautions and Auxiliary Fire Services?

Mr. H. Morrison

The instruction given in, and the equipment being provided for, fire-fighting are designed to minimise the risks attendant on the performance of this duty; the question of physical suitability is more important than that of age. As my hon. Friend is aware, the age limits prescribed in the recent Defence Regulations on the subject, so far as an obligation is imposed, are between 16 and 60; and for the moment the lower limit is being maintained at 18. As regards the last part of the Question, arrangements are subject to the approval of the local authority or other appropriate authorities.

Mr. Sorensen

Does my right hon. Friend realise that some fire-watchers who have been killed might have escaped death if they had taken reasonable pre- cautions, and will he see that, as far as possible, boys and girls under 18 are not employed in tasks which are not quite suitable to their years?

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay

Does my right hon. Friend realise that in Liverpool and elsewhere young people between 16 and 18 are very anxious to serve, and will he also see that Civil Defence cadet units similar to the one in Liverpool are now recognised?

Mr. Morrison

There probably have been some deaths owing to lack of precautions or knowledge. We are doing all that we can to spread the knowledge, but I am bound to say on that point, and on the question of venturesome young people—and, let me add, adventurous old people—that I do not think it would accord with the spirit of the nation if I were to make any restrictions.

Mr. Sorensen

Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that it is not my desire to prevent these people from expressing their laudable spirit of adventure and service, but to try to protect them against what may be impetuousness?

Sir Stanley Reed

Is there any good reason why elderly people should not take their fair share of responsibilities and risks in these days?

32. Mr. Woodburn

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that some employers of labour are using the Business Premises (Fire Prevention) to induce employés, who are already members of Civil Defence services, to resign from these services to become fire-watchers for their employers' premises; and what steps he proposes to take to protect the strength of the Civil Defence services and their members from this pressure?

Mr. Morrison

I have within the last few days issued a public statement indicating that no pressure whatever should be brought on effective members of the Civil Defence services to leave those services and take up fire-fighting duties at their place of work. I hope that this will have the desired effect and that it will be unnecessary for me to take further measures but I shall watch the position closely.

Mr. R. J. Taylor

Will the right hon. Gentleman watch the interests of fire watchers who are employés and who may be forced to leave the A.R.P. services for which they are fully trained? Will he safeguard their interests if pressure is brought to bear upon them?

Mr. Morrison

I wholly agree with my hon. Friend, and I will certainly take whatever action I can in the matter. I would urge any workpeople, trained in the Civil Defence services, who have such pressure brought to bear upon them, to report the matter if they wish to their trade union, and certainly to the local authorities, and the local authorities to report it to the Regional Commissioner.

Mr. Lindsay

Has the right hon. Gentleman power to deal with such employers?

Mr. Morrison

I am not quite sure, but I may have to take new powers.

37. Mr. T. Smith

asked the home Secretary whether, in cases where there are insufficient men at the disposal of a firm or a group to form a fire party on duty each night, the local authority will provide men from the pool free of charge?

Mr. Morrison

If the appropriate authority is satisfied that occupiers, either separately or in combination, are unable to make the necessary provision without the assistance of the local authority, the local authority must give that assistance.

Mr. Smith

Will my right hon. Friend make it perfectly clear that the power of a local authority to charge shall not be enforced where there is a genuine attempt to fulfil obligations, but only in cases where there is deliberate negligence?

Mr. Morrison

I am afraid I could not give a clear answer to that. Circumstances of cases would vary, and matters of equity would arise. Therefore, I think cases must be dealt with administratively when they arise. I shall have plenty of complications in the operation of this Order, and I shall do my best about them.

Mr. Smith

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this Question was put down because some local authorities are not quite clear what their powers are in this respect?

Mr. Morrison

If my hon. Friend knows of any instances, he can draw my attention to them or advise the local authorities to confer with the Regional Commissioner.

Mr. R. C. Morrison

What is to happen in factories where nearly all the employés are women and girls? Are the local authorities to be made responsible for looking after such factories?

Mr. H. Morrison

That is one of the many tricky problems with which we shall have to deal, and I do not think they can be answered across the Floor of the House.

Sir I. Albery

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many cases payment for this service is being offered and demanded far in excess of the payments made to the ordinary fire services? That is a matter which requires attention.

Mr. Morrison

There is a point in that. I think sometimes that payment for full-time fire watching is on the luxury side compared with that of the A.F.S. personnel. Employers should keep that point in mind in the interest of morale.

Mr. Woodburn (by Private Notice)

asked the Home Secretary whether he can make any statement about the supply of steel helmets for fire watchers and members of fire parties?

Mr. Morrison

A new type of steel helmet has been devised for civilian use. It is made of mild steel of about the same thickness as the service steel helmet, but it is lighter in weight. The helmet has a low brim and can be worn without a chin strap. There is a simple lining, which is fastened to the body of the helmet by a lace threaded through small holes in the side. The Ministry of Supply has arranged a production programme, and supplies have already begun. The Ministry of Home Security will exercise control of distribution, first to areas specially liable to enemy attack. Supplies for some areas may have to be deferred for some considerable time until the chief requirements of the most vulnerable areas have been met.

As supplies become available the new helmets will be used first to equip fire watchers, and fire parties in areas in which the recent Regulations and Orders about fire prevention have been put in force. In these areas householders enrolled as members of fire parties enrolled by local authorities, if they undertake regular duty and have no helmet at present, will be supplied with a helmet free, on loan. In other areas householders serving as members of fire parties who are not entitled to a free issue of helmets will be able to buy them. Occupiers of commercial and industrial premises forming their own fire parties will be enabled to buy helmets for members of those parties under special arrangements which will be announced at an early date. The price of the helmets will be 5s. 6d. each. As soon as these demands and certain official requirements have been met, the new helmets may be bought by employers for the use of their workers generally—office staffs as well as industrial workers. The helmet will be a protection at work during alerts and also on journeys to and from work. The helmets will also be made available to voluntary organisations for members who are doing national service of some sort. The sale of these helmets commercially or for profit will be forbidden and private applications from persons wishing to use or sell the helmets cannot be entertained.

Mr. Thorne

Will it be the right hon. Gentleman who will decide to which local authorities helmets are first sent?

Mr. Morrison

Yes, Sir.

Mr. R. C. Morrison

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that the vulnerable areas are supplied with a small number of helmets to be going on with, as in many streets there are fire parties which have not a single helmet among them? It would be better to send a few at a time than to wait to give a full supply to each area in turn.

Mr. H. Morrison

Certainly I will do my best to effect the most equitable and advantageous distribution, and will take that matter into account, but the hon. Member will appreciate that with the creation of this very big army of firebomb fighters, which has been a great credit to the country, we naturally could not at once have the steel helmets ready for them, but we are getting on with the work.