HC Deb 11 December 1941 vol 376 cc1654-6
25. Lieutenant Butcher

asked the Home Secretary whether, under the Business Premises Order, an owner living above his business premises, situate in a precribed area, is entitled to payment for performance of fire-watching duties upon such premises?

Mr. H. Morrison

In certain circumstances persons of the class referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend may be entitled to subsistence allowances under the Fire Prevention (Business Premises), (No. 2) Order. I propose, however, to amend the Order so as to exclude them from the scope of the subsistence provisions.

Lieutenant Butcher

Am I to understand that a citizen guarding his own property and sleeping in his own bed receives payment from national funds for that service?

Mr. Morrison

I am not sure whether such people actually receive payment. My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that one of the difficulties under the present scheme is getting people to do the fire watching.

Lieutenant Butcher

Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity afforded by such reconsideration to make representations to the other Departments for the purpose of securing uniformity in the payments made to the Home Guard and others engaged in similar duty?

Mr. Morrison

I will keep that point in mind.

29. Commander Bower

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the Houghton-le-Spring Urban District Council is advertising for a fireguard assistant staff officer and is insisting that applicants must be members of a trade union; and whether, as this stipulation is a breach of Section 6, Sub-section (1) of the Trade Disputes Act, 1927, he will take steps to have it withdrawn?

Mr. Morrison

Immediately my attention was drawn to this advertisement, I gave directions that the urban district council should be informed that the governing consideration relevant to the filling of this post is whether the candidate selected is, by education, character and training, the person best qualified to discharge the duties in question.

Commander Bower

Is this not a breach of the Trade Disputes Act?

Mr. Morrison

It is not for me to answer legal questions, but I think there is prima facie evidence to that effect.

Mr. Thorne

Is it not the case that a member of a council is entitled to ask an applicant whether he is a member of a trade union or not?

Mr. Morrison

Yes, Sir, but my hon. and gallant Friend's point is whether this stipulation is a breach of the Trade Disputes Act, while I think it runs contrary to the terms of that Act.

36. Mr. Burke

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a member of the regular fire brigade, when appointed to the rank of leading fireman in the National Fire Service is paid £5 5s. per week, while a member of the Auxiliary Fire Service receiving a similar appointment is paid £4 per week, for the same duties and responsibilities; and what steps he is taking to remove this anomaly?

Mr. Morrison

The differentiation in the rates of pay of leading firemen is a consequence of the undertaking that the rates of pay of regular firemen transferred to the National Fire Service should not be reduced by reason of the change, and I do not think it possible to avoid some differentiation.

Mr. Burke

Is it not objectionable, when there are two men doing precisely the same work, that they should be paid rates with such great margins of difference?

Mr. Morrison

There is a very good reason, and that is that it is thoroughly objectionable for a policy to be urged which would mean that Fire Service Civil Defence people would be in a materially better position than other ranks of the Civil Defence. I am not willing to differentiate between one element of Civil Defence and another.

Mr. Burke

Is there any policy worse from a trade union point of view than two men doing the same work and their rates of pay differing by 25s.?

Mr. Morrison

That point does not effectively arise. Regular firemen were taken over into the National Service, and it was right that I should protect their existing standards. But because I protected their existing standards, that is no justification for my elevating firemen, admirable and splendid as their work has been, above the equally brave and courageous people in other ranks of Civil Defence.