HC Deb 21 March 1940 vol 358 cc2097-100
3. Mr. Salt

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can increase the age at which persons are now debarred from registration for training in the manufacture of munitions from 45 to 50?

Mr. E. Brown

Men over 45 years of age can be accepted for training in the Government training centres, provided they are sufficiently fit and handy to take full advantage of the course.

12. Mr. Gallacher

asked the Minister of Labour what is the scale of fines exacted from trainees at the Ministry's training centres; for what offences they are imposed; how many trainees have been fined since 1st September to the last convenient date; and what is the aggregate sum obtained in fines?

Mr. Brown

Small deductions from special pocket-money allowances paid to men in training at Government training centres are made in respect of loss of shop tools, persistent lateness and other breaches of centre rules. There is no scale of fines, which, however, in no case exceed the amount of the pocket money allowance which is 5s. I regret that the statistics asked for by the hon. Member are not available.

Mr. Gallacher

Is it not a very undesirable practice to have a system of this character at these training centres?

Mr. Brown

Certainly not. It is a wonderful thing. It is the only sanction the manager has to maintain discipline, and I assume that discipline is necessary, even in the Red Army.

Mr. Gallacher

Is it not possible to get what is wanted, not necessarily discipline, but co-operation at training centres without introducing undesirable methods of this kind?

Mr. Brown

The hon. Member does not understand the operation of the training centres. I know that some of the Communists have recently begun to take an interest in the centres, whose many years' work have been attended by great and increasing success. This has been the only sanction, and it is necessary in order to ensure that co-operation which the hon. Member now says he wants.

Mr. J. Morgan

The Minister is not suggesting that this is equivalent to serving in the Red Army?

Mr. Brown

Certainly not.

13. Mr. Gallacher

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of discon- tent at the Park Royal training centre owing to the reluctance of the center's officers to grant passes to the trainees for the purpose of visiting the Unemployment Assistance Board's offices when they have applications to make regarding the amount of their allowances; that officials of the centre try to dissuade trainees from making such applications, on the grounds that their claims are hopeless; that such persuasion has on several occasions been brought to bear in the case of men with broken footwear during this year's spells of severe weather; and what steps does he propose to take to put a stop to these practices?

Mr. Brown

No, Sir. All bona fide applications for leave to interview U.A.B. officials are granted without delay. If, however, the hon. Member has any particular case in mind, I will have it investigated.

14. Mr. Gallacher

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that, following dissatisfaction at the Waddon training centre arising from the infliction of fines, one trainee there recently took action against the accountant of the centre, as a result of which the Department paid the fine and costs into court; and why, in view of the fact that the plaintiff's solicitor stated that the object in bringing the case was to test the legality of deducting fines from unemployment insurance benefit paid to trainees, the Ministry took the above course to prevent the matter being raised in open court?

Mr. Brown

I am aware of these proceedings. No deduction was made from the unemployment insurance benefit payable to a trainee at this centre, but a deduction of 2s. 3d. was made from his pocket allowance. This was the value of a shop tool which had been lost. In the circumstances, in order to avoid litigation at the present time, it was decided to pay the money into court, but without the admission of any liability.

Mr. Gallacher

Is it not the case that they paid the costs in order to keep the matter out of the courts, because a court case would have been a complete exposure of this rotten method?

Mr. Brown

There is no reason whatever why I should facilitate the propaganda of the Communist party.

Mr. Gallacher

Might I ask the Minister—

Mr. Speaker

rose—

Mr. Gallacher

On a point of Order. I am making the contention that there is a bad and rotten method—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

No point of Order arises. The hon. Member should ask questions and not make assertions.

Mr. Gallacher

I was asking a question, but instead of answering it, the Minister says he does not want to give propaganda to the Communists.

Mr. Speaker

I think we had better get on.