HC Deb 11 July 1940 vol 362 cc1373-9

Motion made, and Question proposed, That for the remainder of the present Session the following provisions shall have effect as respects the sittings of the House, notwithstanding anything in the Standing Orders or practice of the House—

  1. (a) if, by reason of an air-raid warning being given while the House is sitting, the sitting is suspended, it shall be resumed as soon as may he after the raiders passed signal is given;
  2. (b) if at the time appointed for the meeting of the House on any day an air-raid warning has been given and the raiders passed signal has not been given, the meeting of the House shall be postponed until as soon as may be after the raiders passed signal is given;
  3. (c) where any sitting of the House is suspended or postponed as aforesaid—
    1. (i) the time at which any business, the consideration of which has not begun, is required by any Standing Order, order or resolution of the House to be taken; and
    2. (ii) the time at which any such business, or any business the consideration of which has begun but has not been completed, is required as aforesaid to be concluded or interrupted;
  4. (d) at any sitting of the House which has been suspended or postponed as aforesaid, any motion or other business which, but for this paragraph, could not have been made or taken without notice, or would have been required to be made or taken at a particular time or at a particular stage of the proceedings, may be made by, or taken at the instance of, a Minister of the Crown without notice and at any other time or other stage of the proceedings."—[Mr. Attlee.]

4.0 p.m.

Sir Hugh O'Neill (Antrim)

When the Lord Privy Seal moved a similar Motion a week ago I asked you, Mr. Speaker, a question. The reason why I asked that question was that it appeared to me that as that Motion was drawn and as this Motion is drawn to-day, it was not clear whether the suspension of the sitting of the House, in the event of an air raid, was to take place automatically on the warning or not. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal replied to me at the time to the effect that the question of whether the sitting should be suspended or not, was a matter of discretion. I think it now appears clearly that that is not so. The Air Raid Precautions Committee of the Houses of Parliament have recommended that, in the event of an air raid warning, the sitting of the House should be automatically and immediately suspended. If that is to be so, I suggest that it would be better to state the fact definitely in this Motion and thereby have it upon the records of the House of Commons rather than that it should merely be contained in the recommendations of the Houses of Parliament A.R.P. Committee.

I have carefully read the submission of the Houses of Parliament A.R.P. Committee which was made to you, Mr. Speaker, since this matter was raised last week, and I see that any discretion placed on you, or on the Chairman of Ways and Means to suspend or not to suspend the sitting might involve a very difficult and responsible decision. The A.R.P. Committee have represented that it is too great a responsibility to place upon the Chair, and I must say I agree that there is a great deal in that view. At the same time, one must remember that in the factories which are producing war materials the present rule is that work must go on, even after an air-raid warning has been given, and that the same difficulty and responsibility rests upon whoever has to decide in those factories whether there is a case for the suspension of work or not. In view of the fact that I raised a question last week on this matter, it is only right that I should say now that I fully realise the difficulty and that, on the whole, I think, probably the suggestion of the A.R.P. Committee is right and that, in existing circumstances, we in the House of Commons cannot do otherwise than adjourn the sitting, as soon as an air-raid warning has been given.

4.3 p.m.

Mr. Cocks (Broxtowe)

I do not think it is in accordance with the dignity of this Chamber that, directly an air-raid warning is sounded, we should immediately and expeditiously disappear down to the dungeons beneath. I feel, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Antrim (Sir H. O'Neill) has said, that the rule which applies in factories, that work should not cease until the actual gunfire is heard, should also apply here. Although I am not pressing the point, I, personally, would prefer to go even further and to sit on, until it became physically impossible to sit here any longer. I heard with deep respect what you, Mr. Speaker, said about the responsibility of the Chair in this matter. Of course, it is not a responsibility which should be placed on the occupant of the Chair, whether on you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Deputy-Chairman, or one of the panel of Temporary Chairmen. I think there is a great deal to be said for that view. Surely it is this House itself which ought to decide whether to adjourn or not. As I see it, we shall be seated here debating and gunfire will be heard. The Chief Whip, having sensed the feeling of the House, will then at the appropriate moment, move in the ordinary way "That this House do now adjourn."

I think that is the way to do it—to have not an automatic adjournment but an adjournment moved by someone in charge, such as the Chief Whip. If the Chief Whip were already down in the dungeons, it might be moved by somebody else. Another point made previously was that we should remember that there were others in the House besides Members. As far as the occupants of the gallery are concerned, there is no compulsion on them to stay, although I expect that they would stay out of curiosity. There is no compulsion on anybody to remain. Even the officials of the House might be permitted to go, although I think, if their feelings were consulted, it would be found that they preferred to share our danger as well as our dignity.

4.6 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore (Ayr Burghs)

When this question was being discussed last week it was pointed out that it would show very poor leadership on our part, if we decided to rush to the cellars when an air-raid warning came, although only the day before the Home Secretary had said that workers in munition factories must continue their work irrespective of whether there was an air-raid warning or not, until the antiaircraft gunfire was heard. I am not clear about the exact meaning of this Motion and I wish to ask you, Sir, whether you, in your capacity as Speaker, are to decide that we shall go off to the cellars on an air-raid warning being given, or whether the sitting of the House will be automatically suspended.

Mr. Speaker

I think the House generally understands that when a "red warning" is given, that is to say a warning that an air raid is imminent, I shall suspend the sitting of the House immediately.

Mr. Lees-Smith (Keighley)

Since last week, my hon. Friends and I have gone into this question, especially in the light of the guidance which we received from you, Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday last and, as far as we are concerned, we make no objection to this Motion.

Sir Ralph Glyn (Abingdon)

May I ask whether the rules which are now to govern the proceedings of this House in air raids will also govern the proceedings in Government Departments? If civil servants in Government offices in this neighbourhood are to have a discretion in the matter of remaining at work, as workers in munition factories are doing, it will make a difference to our attitude.

4.9 p.m.

Mr. Vernon Bartlett (Bridgwater)

Is it not possible that this matter could be left, as the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) suggested, to the discretion of the Chief Whip? A great number of people in this House would be very ashamed if they left this Chamber when there was not any imminent danger and the effect would be very bad all through the country. I suggest, with all deference, that when the occasion arises it should be left to the House itself to decide whether or not the situation is so dangerous as to require the suspension of the sitting.

Mr. Mander (Wolverhampton, East)

Would not the difficulty arise in that case, that you would be placing the responsibility on another person, namely, the Chief Whip. If the question were left to the decision of the House there might be a Division—the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) would be sure to challenge one—and the Division would occupy a quarter of an hour, and then it might be too late.

Mr. Lewis (Colchester)

May I point out that the comparison with munition factories hardly holds good for this reason, that no Member of Parliament is compelled to attend this House? We need not come here. In the case of a particular Debate, we need not be in the Chamber and therefore there is no comparison.

4.12 p.m.

Sir William Davison (Kensington, South)

The case of members in the Government service in ordinary offices is quite different from this case. Here it is not a question so much of danger from bombs or splinters, as of the fact that this Chamber is glass-roofed and any bomb falling within 100 yards of it would probably blind half the Members of the House of Commons. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It might be a good thing if it cut off the tongues of half of them, but I think to have them blinded and groping about, while retaining their tongues, would be worse than anything.

4.13 p.m.

Mr. Woodburn (Stirling and Clackmannan, Eastern)

This House ought to show the country an example in discipline. What is being proposed here by some hon. Members is that we should all become anarchists, that each should decide for himself and do what he wants to do. It may be that Members of this House are eager to have the bombs bursting next door to them, but I do not believe it, and there is no reason why we should pose before the country as if we were anxious to be martyrs in that respect. As was pointed out the other day, if air-raid precautions are to be effective, they must be co-ordinated, and they do not depend on our knowledge within this building but on the knowledge of the authorities who decide when people ought to take shelter. If we ask the people outside to submit to discipline and to behave in an orderly fashion in connection with air-raid precautions, we ourselves should show an example.

Mr. Naylor (Southwark, South-East)

There is one possibility which has been overlooked, namely, that the bombs may be falling before any warning is given and all the Members who are in this House put out of commission or blown to pieces. What would the procedure be in that case? Would it be in order for anyone who escaped to move to report Progress and ask leave to sit again?

Mr. Cocks

On the point of procedure, may I recall that in the history of this House there was an occasion when the Speaker wanted to adjourn the House and was forcibly held in the Chair by Members? Would that precedent be applicable in this case?

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That for the remainder of the present Session the following provisions shall have effect as respects the sittings of the House, notwithstanding anything in the Standing Orders or practice of the House—

  1. (a) if, by reason of an air-raid warning being given while the House is sitting, the sitting is suspended, it shall be resumed as soon as may be after the raiders passed signal is given;
  2. (b) if at the time appointed for the meeting of the House on any day an air-raid warning has been given and the raiders passed signal has not been given, the meeting of the House shall be postponed until as soon as may be after the raiders passed signal is given;
  1. (i) the time at which any business, the consideration of which has not begun, is required by any Standing Order, order or resolution of the House to be taken; and
  2. (ii) the time at which any such business, or any business the consideration of which has begun but has not been completed, is required as aforesaid to be concluded or interrupted;