HC Deb 10 July 1940 vol 362 cc1151-3
Mr. Lyons

(by Private Notice) asked the Home Secretary where and by which persons and on what grounds permission will be given for entry into scheduled Defence Areas and what instructions are being given to ensure uniformity in operation?

Mr. Mabane

As has been explained on the wireless and in the Press there is no permit system for entry into areas which have been declared Defence Areas, or into particular parts of such areas. Visits for purposes of pleasure, recreation or holidays are not permitted, but visits for business purposes, to see sick or aged relatives or evacuated children are not interfered with. Instructions issued by Regional Commissioners to the police in their Regions are designed to secure uniformity of practice within the individual Regions, but the varying circumstances of the Regions render complete uniformity of practice throughout all the Regions affected impracticable. My right hon. Friend is, however, satisfied that although in the initial stages some misunderstandings occurred, the intention of the Defence Areas Orders is now generally appreciated and no person wishing to enter a defence area for any legitimate purpose is likely to be refused entry.

Mr. Lyons

May I ask my hon. Friend whether, when a person reaches such an area, it is within the discretion of the local police officer at the station to say whether or not that person shall enter the town?

Mr. Mabane

If the person concerned can show that he does not wish to enter the area for pleasure, the police authorities will not impede the entry of that person into the area.

Mr. Spens

Will my hon. Friend consider having someone at the London termini who could advise people who think of proceeding by train to a Defence Area whether the reasons for which they are going are likely to be acceptable to the local police, having regard to the fact that otherwise a person might arrive at a station in such an area and after examination by the local police be sent straight back without being able to do what he had come to do?

Mr. Mabane

In the case of the original Defence Areas, that is, Eastern and South-Eastern, with the exception of West Sussex and part of East Sussex, lists of stations affected within the Defence Area are displayed at all stations, and the booking clerks draw the attention of intending travellers to the list. It is intended that in the other areas a parallel practice shall be adopted.

Mr. Spens

May I press this point on my hon. Friend? It is quite true that the booking clerks tell people that they are going to stations from which they may be sent back without being able to do what they wish to do in the towns concerned, but would it not be possible to have at the London termini somebody who could advise unfortunate civilians whether the reasons for which they wish to enter those areas are likely to be acceptable to the local police?

Mr. Mabane

I do not think that would be advisable, since it is the military authorities at the other end who are the people who, in the last resort, decide.

Mr. Lyons

Will my hon. Friend consider this point? Whereas now the police authorities at the other end have discretion to say whether or not a person shall enter the area or not, would it not be possible to have some centralised authority to consider each application on its merits, so as not to permit of the possibility of unauthorised people going into the areas?

Mr. Mabane

As has already been pointed out, such a system would not be practicable. Circumstances might change rapidly, and even if a permit had been issued, it might, when it came to be used, be invalid.

Sir H. Williams

Will my hon. Friend inform me who makes the decision at the other end? I ask this because of the experience of a constituent of mine the other day who wanted to visit some bereaved relatives. He was conducted by the police from one platform to another, was not allowed to explain his reasons to anybody, and had no right of appeal to anybody. What steps are being taken to clear up a situation of that kind, which is neither sensible nor tolerable?

Mr. Mabane

If my hon. Friend will bring that case to my attention, I will have the matter investigated.

Sir H. Williams

Is my hon. Friend aware that I drew his attention to it 10 days ago, and I have not had an answer?

Mr. de Rothschild

Is it a fact that parents are allowed to visit evacuated children in these areas, and is it the intention of the Government to leave these evacuated children in these dangerous areas any longer?

Mr. Mabane

With regard to the first part of the question, parents are not encouraged to visit evacuated children, but are permitted to do so. The second part of the question raises a different matter, and I should be glad if my hon. Friend would give me notice of it.

Mr. Levy

Are we to understand from the answer that nobody starting on a journey of this kind knows whether or not will be permitted to go into the area, and that this is entirely at the discretion of the police authorities, and is not this an intolerable state of affairs if one wants to make a journey to one of these areas?

Mr. Mabane

Any such suggestion gives an entirely false impression. If anyone making a journey to one of these areas is quite certain that he is not going for pleasure, but for proper business or other reasons, there is no reason to suppose that he will be turned back.

Mr. De la Bère

Is it not clear that there is a good deal of unfinished thought on this matter?