HC Deb 22 February 1940 vol 357 cc1636-50

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £ 180,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the salaries and expenses of the office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and subordinate offices, liquidation expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary, contributions towards the expenses of Probation, preparation of plans for a Ministry of Information and a grant in aid of the Central Committee for Refugees.

7.26 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake)

As this Vote is for a completely new service, I think perhaps I ought to say a few words in explanation to the Committee. It may have come as something of a surprise to hon. Members, in view of the past policy of the Government in regard to the refugee problem, when my right hon. Friend announced on 2nd February, in a fairly long Written Answer to a Question, that the Government were going to find a sum of £180,000 for the assistance of voluntary organisations which have hitherto borne the entire brunt of the refugee problem. Excluding children, there are about 50,000 refugees in this country at the present time, and, of course, a great proportion of them are in work, such as domestic service. Many others are maintained by relatives, friends, or charitably-minded individuals. But a considerable number, which was largely increased on the outbreak of war, are being maintained by weekly payments made by these voluntary organisations. It is estimated that these organisations have spent, since 1933, over £5,000,000 on this refugee problem, in addition to a further £3,000,000, which is an estimate of the value of hospitality in kind which has been given by private individuals. People of all classes in this country have made their contribution to these funds, and we are satisfied that the Jewish community, in particular, have done everything in their power to alleviate the sufferings of so many members of their own creed or race. On the outbreak of war the situation of these organisations, which was none too good at that time, became very much worse. In the first place, a very large number of domestic servants were thrown out of employment and, furthermore, of course, the war Budget of October made it infinitely harder for these organisations to continue raising funds. By the middle of November their representatives told us that they were spending £60,000 per month and they could not carry on for more than a few weeks longer.

The Government had to consider the consequences of the complete collapse of these voluntary organisations—the consequences for the refugees themselves, the effect on public opinion as regards Jews in this country, and the consequences for the local authorities, which would have been faced with the burden of providing for these refugees. When we investigated the problem, we found that those burdens would have fallen very unequally on local authorities throughout the country. In point of fact a few local authorities in particular places would have had extraordinarily heavy burdens cast upon them, and that would have produced a very difficult situation indeed. Not only on material grounds but on human grounds as well, it was difficult to contemplate the collapse and disintegration of these organisations. They keep in touch with the refugees, and they maintain considerable numbers of them in hostels and so forth, and I do not think the Committee would have contemplated with equanimity the falling on to public assistance of large numbers of aliens, women for the most part, who have no homes and no ties of any kind in this country. We have, therefore, devised a system of aiding these voluntary organisations upon a £ for £ basis. That is to say, for every £1 expended by the voluntary organisations the Government will contribute £1 themselves. That has the dual advantage, that it promotes economy on the one hand, and it does not dry up the springs, of private charity on the other.

To turn to the financial details of the arrangement, the proposal is that in respect of the four months from the outbreak of the war up to the end of December, the Government should contribute the sum of £25,000 per month, that is, £100,000 in all, which I can assure the Committee is substantially less than half the money expended by the voluntary organisations. As far as the period after 1st January is concerned, the Government will find £1 for every £1 expended by the voluntary organisations up to a maximum of £27,000 per month. That arrangement will hold good till the end of June, when, of course, it will have to be subject to review in the light of the situation as it then exists.

As far as the efficiency and economy of these organisations are concerned, a new committee has been constituted represen- tative of all the organisations involved, and also containing on it independent representatives who have had experience of administration of the social services, and I am pleased to inform the Committee that, as chairman, we have secured the services of Sir Herbert Emerson, whose name is so well known to everyone who has ever given any study to this refugee problem. We hope that the cost will gradually diminish as the refugees find jobs available for them. There is an increasing movement in the direction of better employment in the country, but it has not proceeded anything like as fast as the refugee organisations had hoped, and I am afraid it may still be quite a number of months before the bulk of these homeless and workless refugees are absorbed in the life of the community.

7.37 p.m.

Sir Percy Harris

I should like to pay tribute to the sympathetic and understanding work of the Under-Secretary of State. Of course, the Home Secretary must share that distinction, but I think the hon. Gentleman has applied his mind and tried to understand and be sympathetic to one of the most difficult and most vitally important problems directly associated with the great war. It is a satisfactory contrast in this home of civilisation that the Government, in the middle of a great war, can find money for this work of social service for refugees who have been driven out of their homeland by the brutal, cruel and uncivilised conduct of the government with which we are now struggling. It is not inappropriate that we should spend a few minutes to remind ourselves what is the cause which makes it necessary for the taxpayer to find this comparatively small sum. It is a difficult problem. The hon. Gentleman is quite right. You could not possibly put this burden on local authorities without causing friction, and it might even bring about bad blood and cause an anti-alien feeling—the very thing that we want to avoid. It is right and proper that the Government should find this money rather than have it found by the local rates. From all I hear, it is the greatest wish of these people to get self-respect by becoming breadwinners, earning their keep by employment, and the sooner they get the opportunity the better for themselves and the better for the nation as a whole.

As long as we have a million and a quarter unemployed, the Ministry of Labour has to go slow and exercise tact, but I know that many of these people have exceptional skill which could be exploited in the national interest in the time of war. I hope that as the need for labour expands—and if we are to put the full weight of our energy into the conduct of the war the need for labour ought to expand—every encouragement should be given with the co-operation of the Home Office and the Ministry of Labour, to enable these men to find useful, productive employment in their own interest and in that of the community as a whole. That would be far better than finding the money from the taxpayer. I think the Government are entitled to the support of all parties in the House in asking for this sum. The idea of £ for £ is a good one. It means that charity is not dried up but encouraged by the action of the State.

7.41 p.m.

Colonel Wedgwood

I also begin by saying how much we appreciate the care and attention which the Under-Secretary of State has given to this subject during the time he has been in his office. The Home Office itself has been most helpful and most thoughtful, and has taken a much more liberal view of the whole problem than is generally found on the Front Bench. I think this is an occasion when we are bound to point out, not only to the people of this country but to the world as a whole, what we have done for this particular form of charity. The figures given in an answer by the Home Secretary are most striking. Since this persecution began charitable organisations in this country, by no means all Jewish, have found £5,000,000. It has probably come out of the taxpayer's pocket, but it would have had to come out of the taxpayer's pocket if it had not been found by voluntary effort. In addition there is £3,000,000, which, I think, is a very small and modest measure of what has actually been done by the people of this country.

There have been literally hundreds of organisations in Great Britain collecting funds locally and looking after half a dozen or 20 refugees, all done simply through a spirit of Christian charity, by no means confined to any particular denomination. It is one of the most striking contributions that I can remember this country having made towards righting an injustice. We have often found money for earthquakes, but for seven years we have been doing our best to right a monstrous and inhuman injustice inflicted by Germany upon people who have committed no crime. Do not let us forget that not only this £180,000, which is the taxpayer's contribution, but the whole of this sum has been blackmailed out of the people of this country by Hitler. He has robbed these people of everything they had, driven them into other countries, and made those countries which were decent enough to receive them pay the bill. I do not think there has been a parallel to it in the history of mankind.

I could wish that the Under-Secretary had given us a little more information as to the extent of the problem and the numbers. I know that refugees have been allowed to re-emigrate mostly to America; and America has also done extremely well in helping these victims of injustice. But still there must be now, I judge, quite 50,000 left in this country. A great many of these will be going sooner or later to the Colonies or to America. They will cease to be a problem. We must count on at least 40,000 remaining in this country. Here we are making some sort of preparation for looking after some of these people. Of that 40,000, probably at least three-quarters will get work sooner or later, and there is then the residuum of people over 55, not to mention children who will grow up into useful citizens, who will have to be looked after, and, unfortunately, a certain number of wasters who, so long as they can be kept at a rate of £5 per month, would prefer to be kept by charity rather than do manual work. That is the problem with which the Government and the Jewish and other aid societies are faced. Most of those who have already got work are helping this country, but the others, the old and the wasters, will be a dead weight unless we can improve matters. I gather that there are 43,000 who are now set free with "C" certificates to get work, and about 8,000 who have only "B" certificates, and cannot move more than five miles away and are under constant police supervision.

The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Clifton Brown)

I am afraid that the right hon. and gallant Member is now getting to what are Home Office matters and are not connected with the Vote under discussion.

Colonel Wedgwood

We are voting £27,000 per month in order to solve this problem. That is not an adequate sum to meet the cost of this experiment unless steps are taken to see that every one of these people has an opportunity to get work. The best solution of this problem is not charity or a subvention from the taxpayer, but that they should get work and produce wealth for the country. Ethically and morally we ought to contemplate getting rid of this £27,000 subsidy and seeing that the whole of these refugees are merged in the ordinary population of the country. We shall not have succeeded in solving the problem until they are amalgamated, and one of the natural ways is that they should come under the unemployment insurance like ordinary English people in the same position. It is true that that would come heavily on a place like Hampstead, but I think Hampstead can better bear it than most districts. The important thing is that they should be treated as though they were ordinary citizens of this country to be looked after by the same machinery. That is the end at which we shall have to aim, and I think it should be made clear to these people as soon as possible that that is the object of the Government. The tribunal has dealt with this problem extremely wisely. Nearly everybody has been passed for work, and if we can get these refugees trusted and allowed to find work, we shall have done much more to solve this problem than by voting £27,000 per month.

I would urge the Government to say something to the refugees themselves. I think we are leaving the direction of the refugees too much in the hands of charitable organisations. I think they ought to be told by the Government that they are on their way to becoming British citizens, that they must fit themselves into the community, that they must cease to think of some blessed time when they will be able to return to Vienna and Berlin, that they must become British in sympathy and British in outlook. There is too much talking in German and reading of German. If these people are to become good British citizens, they must try to understand English people, to become part of this country, and then they will amalgamate and become in due course, when the seven years are up, excellent citizens of this country. Meanwhile, the Government have done well to assist the charitable organisations, which would otherwise have gone bankrupt, for they could not possibly have faced the problem during war. I hope they will be seen through by this scheme, and I hope that the scheme will be used to bring constant pressure upon the organisations to cease giving assistance to undeserving cases, to help those who wish to work to get work, and to educate them to become British in every sense of the term.

7.52 p.m.

Mr. Edmund Harvey

I think it must be a source of gratification to the Home Secretary and the Under-Secretary that in all parts of the Committee there is appreciation of this Vote and the spirit which has prompted it, the wisdom and sympathy shown by the Home Office in dealing with this extremely difficult problem, and the great care, sympathy and interest which have been shown by the Under-Secretary in handling it. One or two hon. Members have said that we ought to congratulate ourselves upon doing so much at such a time as the present. Of course, we ought to be thankful that this is being done, but we should be making a great mistake if we thought of this country as taking the lead in this matter. France has been bearing a far heavier burden for a longer time. In France, they have Spanish, German and Polish refugees, and the numbers there and the cost to the French State are immensely greater than in this country. When one thinks of poorer and smaller countries, such as Hungary and Rumania, and realise what they are doing in maintaining refugees for whose presence they have no responsibility, one cannot help feeling that we have no right to congratulate ourselves too much on the efforts we are making.

We have also to remember that before the State intervened, the voluntary societies had been working at the difficult task for a long time, and that the State came forward at the last moment when this private effort was on the point of breaking down. I am grateful to the Government for having taken this step, which I think was essential, but we must not forget the immense effort that has been made by voluntary organisations and private individuals in dealing with this problem, in some cases for years, since these distressed people began to come into this country as a result of injustice and wrong elsewhere. I hope that when the Under-Secretary replies he will make a little clearer the arrangement that is to be made with regard to the voluntary organisations. I hope that an attempt will be made by the Government to see that the committees in the country which have in some cases expended a great deal of time, thought, and money, will get their share of the payment of £100,000 for past expenses. I realise that the greater part of the sum must naturally go to the great central organisations, but the local committees, which have often taken charge of a considerable number of cases, have incurred special expenses, and they also are in need of help. The personal friendship and guidance that can be given through such organisations is of immense value at a time like the present, when it is not merely money that is wanted by the refugees, but even more, human sympathy and friendship, which give to them the feeling that they are being treated as fellow men, and not simply as units, mechanically given a dole and left with that.

I believe the result of this grant will be a continuation of this work which will be of great value, and I hope that the Government will eventually make it unnecessary for grants to be made in the future by carrying out the suggestions that have already been made. We ought to see that a great many of these people who want to work and have the ability to do so are given an opportunity. I do not believe that if they were allowed to work it would take work away from British subjects; rather the reverse. We ought also to look forward to the acquisition of British citizenship by refugee children who have come into this country at an early age and are being trained in British schools, and who in a few years time will have been five, six or seven years in this country, and in some cases will hardly remember the country of their birth, and will have no tie of sentiment binding them to it. They will make admirable citizens of the British Commonwealth, in this country or overseas. We ought to encourage a prospect of that sort.

7.57 p.m.

Earl Winterton

I am in a somewhat delicate position in speaking on this subject, because I am not only chairman of the Inter-Governmental Committee which is responsible for dealing with these refugees, but I am the British Government representative on it. I had not intended to take part in the Debate, but I felt that I ought to correct one or two impressions that might have been created by the speeches that have been made. In the first place, it is inaccurate to say, as was said by the hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Harvey) that this country has not done as much as some other countries as far as this category of refugees is concerned. On the contrary, the record of this country is a most excellent one.

Mr. Harvey

I did not refer to this category of refugees alone. I was speaking of refugees in general. I had in mind the immense number of Spanish refugees, and not merely the German refugees.

Earl Winterton

I am afraid it would not be in order for me to deal with that point, as we are not discussing Spanish refugees, but this particular category of refugees. With regard to them, it may interest the Committee to know that last year the intake into this country over a period was greater than it was even in the case of the United States. More of them came into this country than went into the United States. There is another point to which I want to refer. It is a profound mistake to suppose that all the people who will be beneficiaries under this Vote are going to remain permanently in this country. That is something which has not been said either by the Undersecretary or by anybody else, and I think it is important that it should be said, because outside the House there is criticism of the fact that Parliament is voting a large sum of money for refugees which ought to be given to British citizens. I do not agree with the criticism, and in view of my position I do not want to discuss that aspect now. I simply want to make clear that a great many of these people are what are called temporary migrants in transit waiting to go overseas to the United States, when they can do so under the quota, to the Dominions, or elsewhere. I hope that the effect of this Debate on most of these people will not be to encourage them to remain here if they can get better positions overseas.

I do not altogether agree with previous speakers that it is necessary to encourage a lot of refugees to settle in this country. The attitude of the committee over which I have the honour to preside is that it is desirable that these people should be spread over as wide an area as possible, and any of them who can go to the United States, and get work there, will probably find opportunities greater than those which are available in this country. That ought to be made clear, because it is a very important point of principle. Criticism outside Parliament has been directed against the Government on the ground that large sums are being spent in order to keep refugees permanently in this country. That is not the intention of the Vote at all. It is to assist those who are in temporary difficulties until they can either find employment here if eventually given naturalisation, or until they get on to the American quota or go in any other way to other parts of the world.

I wish to pay my tribute to what the Government have done and also to say that I am very glad that Sir Herbert Emerson, the League High Commissioner for Refugees and also Director of the committee over which I preside, has consented to be chairman of this new committee. I am sure that the Under-Secretary will agree that Sir Herbert, in his capacity as Director of the Inter-Governmental Committee, has done a great deal to bring about the success of the negotiations between the Government and the refugee organisations which has resulted in this Vote.

8.2 p.m.

Mr. W. Roberts

In reference to what has been said by the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), I would point out that this money is available for refugees in a very technical sense. I am not clear, for instance, whether Czechs are regarded as refugees for this purpose or can benefit from this assistance?

Colonel Wedgwood

No.

Mr. Roberts

I thought not. Of course there are other large categories of refugees. I suppose that Poles, for instance, come under this and that Spaniards do not. Therefore, in considering the whole refugee question which has arisen in the last few years, it is only right to realise that some other countries have borne a much greater burden than this country. I wish to associate myself with the congratulations which have been offered to the Under-Secretary and the Department on the way in which this problem has been handled. I have one request to make—that in dealing with the question of employment, a little more consideration should be given to professional and intellectual capacity. If a man has capital it is easy for him to obtain a permit to work in this country. In my part of the North of England we are much beholden to the many refugees who have started large industries there, employing numbers of English people. It is with the greatest difficulty, however, that those firms can get a permit to employ even one person of their own nationality. After all, we are getting the benefit of their capacity and skill and I would ask the Home Office to be a little more lenient in granting permits to people who have not been so fortunate as to get their capital out of Germany or whatever other country they may have come from.

It is much easier now, but the position still is that a person must have capital. Of course if he is lucky enough to belong to a trade in which there is a shortage of workers in this country he is all right but the position is exceedingly difficult at the present time for the professional or intellectual worker who is without other capital than his qualifications. May I suggest that brains should be regarded as being as valuable to the country as either capital or brawn? It is a short-sighted policy to test whether a man should be employed or not simply on the consideration that some British subject might possibly be qualified on paper to do that particular work. One cannot judge doctors or followers of other professional and intellectual occupations on that basis, and therefore I hope the Home Office will be a little more lenient in granting permits.

8.5 p.m.

Mr. Butcher

I am grateful to the Under-Secretary for the sympathetic way in which he has dealt with this problem of refugees ever since he undertook the duties of his present office. I feel that by this policy the Government have done much to prevent the growth of anti-alien feeling in this country. I would welcome from the Under-Secretary a little more information as to the number of people concerned and whether that number is likely to decline as the result of migration to the United States or the Colonies. I should also like to know whether there is Treasury representation on the committee of which Sir Herbert Emerson is to be chairman. I feel that in dealing with this problem we have a right to expect that the refugees will support one another to the maximum extent of which they are capable and that there should be support from relatives wherever possible. I feel too that in the administration of the funds placed at the disposal of the voluntary organisations, the treatment given to these people—who are, I agree, in most cases very deserving—should not be more favourable than that which is accorded to members of our own race and blood who are suffering from misfortune in some other way. I approve of and welcome the grant but I hope that no hasty steps will be taken in the direction of treating these people as permanent residents here. I hope many of them will pass overseas and that at a later date conditions will prevail in Germany and Austria under which they will be able to return to the country which gave them birth and where their earlier and happier associations remain.

Sir Henry Fildes

With regard to the new appointment which has been indicated, may I ask whether there is any salary attached to the office or whether it is a voluntary contribution to the solution of this difficulty?

8.9 p.m.

Mr. Peake

I wish to thank the Committee for the congratulatory and complimentary references which have been made to my right hon. Friend and myself in connection with this Vote. I should say that I found this sympathetic policy already in full operation when I went to the Home Office in April last. As regards employment and emigration, I had intended to give the Committee more information in my opening remarks, but I purposely cut short my speech as I understood that the Committee desired to proceed to other business. My right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) is quite right in emphasising the fact that a large proportion of these refugees are in this country on a temporary basis. As long as the employment situation remains what it is to-day, we shall certainly not do anything to discourage the transference of these refugees to countries of ultimate settlement outside, and I may inform the Committee that, in spite of all the difficulties in the way of emigration, no fewer than 1,000 refugees left these shores between the outbreak of war in September and the end of December last. It is estimated that a further 5,000 will leave these shores in the period between January and June of this year.

So far as employment is concerned there is, of course, a general desire to make use of the services of as many of these refugees as possible. We did, in fact, bring into operation in November last an Order which very much simplified the procedure so far as employment of aliens is concerned, and as a result quite a number of aliens have been placed in jobs through the employment exchanges. We are still faced with the difficulty that employment in the country has not improved as quickly as we would wish, but at the same time we hope that when an improvement comes we shall be able to absorb, at any rate temporarily, quite a large number of refugees at present being maintained through the agency of these voluntary organisations. The hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Fildes) asked me a question. I am afraid I have not the answer here but I will communicate it to him.

Earl Winterton

Is it not a fact that none of this particular category of refugees, for whom this Vote is intended, have come in since the beginning of the war, so that the emigration overseas represents a net reduction?

Mr. Peake

Our policy at the outbreak of war was to stop all refugees and other immigration into this country. We have, however, modified that policy to the small extent that, where the wife or the young children of a refugee, already here, had reached a neutral or an allied country before the outbreak of war, we have for the purpose of bringing the family together again, granted permission in exceptional cases for the family to come to this country.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That a supplementary sum not exceeding £180,000 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March 1940, for the salaries and expenses of the office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and the subordinate offices, liquidation expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary, contributions towards the expenses of probation, preparation of plans for a Ministry of Information and a Grant-in-Aid of the Central Committee for Refugees.

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