FIFTH SCHEDULE.—(Provisions as to certain drainage schemes.) (Hansard, 15 February 1940)

§ Mr. Colville
I beg to move, in page 29, line 9, after "of," to insert: 1076 the land to be drained in pursuance of. This is consequential on an Amendment which was made in Clause 14.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte
I beg to move, in page 29, line 23, after "owners," to insert "and occupiers."
I would like to refer in this connection to the third Amendment of the series which I have on the Order Paper, in line 24, after "scheme," to insert: and to the owner of any other land which would in the opinion of the Board be affected by the carrying out of the scheme. I do not wish to move the second Amendment, in line 24, after "scheme," to insert: and to such other persons as the Minister may direct. The whole point is to make sure that everyone concerned receives full notice of schemes that are being made. It is necessary for occupiers as well as owners to be told. The interest of farmers may be very seriously affected by these schemes. The third Amendment to which I have referred is more or less a quotation from Sub-section (2) of Clause 28 referring to Scotland.

§ Mr. Colville
My right hon. Friend yesterday, in replying to another Amendment, indicated that he would consider the point and that it might be raised on the Report stage, and on that the Amendment was withdrawn. It would, therefore, not be right to make this consequential Amendment at this stage.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte
I beg to move, in page 29, line 24, after "scheme," to insert: and to the owner of any other land which would in the opinion of the Board be affected by the carrying out of the scheme.

§ Mr. Colville
There is a difficulty attached to this that, if notice has to be given to all owners who might be affected by schemes of this kind, great delay might arise. The circumstances are not quite parallel because in Scotland we are dealing with rather a different type of drainage from what is proposed here, but the Minister will request catchment boards to send copies of the scheme to the drainage 1077 board affected, which should cover the point that my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte
I beg to move, in page 29, line 32, at the end, to insert: who shall after considering any such objections as aforesaid which shall not have been withdrawn either approve with or without modifications or disapprove the scheme: Provided that a scheme as approved by the Minister shall not include any land not included in the area of the scheme as set out in the draft of the scheme under paragraph 1 of this Schedule. This Amendment is of considerable importance, because these schemes will affect owners of land and others to a great extent and may throw heavy charges on them. Objection may be laid before the Board, but it does not go any further. The Board considers it and passes the scheme on to the Minister. There is no need for the Board to tell the Minister that any objections have been made, and the Minister has no knowledge of anyone objecting to the scheme. It is only fair that owners should have some appeal beyond the Board. In the ordinary course there would probably be local inquiries, but we are anxious not to cause any delay in getting schemes put forward and, if the Board is made to tell the Minister that there are objections, that would be a fair way of treating it.

§ Mr. Ramsbotham
If this Amendment had been moved in peace-time, I do not think there would be very much doubt as to the reception it would have got. It seems reasonable, but, as my hon. and gallant Friend has indicated himself, in war-time delay is one of the things that we are most anxious to avoid, and there would be a risk of considerable delay in carrying out schemes. Realizing that this is a war-time Measure, I ask my hon. and gallant Friend not to press his Amendment, so that there may be no obstacle to prevent the utmost speed being attained.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte
Why should it lead to delay? The Minister will only have to read a few paragraphs or a page or two more and consider whether he will support the objection or 1078 not. To read it through and make his decision would not take more than half-an-hour more.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Heneage
I should like to support what the Minister has said, because I am afraid it will entail delay. It is going to be very hard for catchment boards to get on with these schemes quickly. I was rather sorry when my hon. and gallant Friend moved the previous Amendment. The more people you notify, the more objection there is to the schemes. The very fact of objection involves opposition. What the country wants is to get the land drained as quickly as possible. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press the Amendment and will take the assurance from me that catchment boards will do all in their power to consult those interested.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte
I am afraid my hon. and gallant Friend has not read the Schedule. Paragraph 3 says: After considering any objections duly made to the draft of a scheme and making any modifications therein which they think expedient having regard to any such objection, the Board may submit the scheme to the Minister for his approval. All they have to do is to submit the objections with the scheme. They simply pass it on to the Minister for him to read through.

§ Mr. Ramsbotham
It is not quite so simple as that. The objections cannot be read through and put into the waste-paper basket. They have to be referred to the catchment board. That all takes time and involves delay, and for that reason I repeat my appeal to my hon. and gallant Friend not to press the Amendment so that we may have no obstacle in the way of getting on with the work.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte
What my right hon. Friend says is that he does not want proper justice done. As that is his view, and as I have not found much support, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.