HC Deb 14 February 1940 vol 357 cc798-800

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

4.17 p.m.

Mr. Alexander

Now that the Secretary of State for Scotland has had 25 minutes in which to contemplate the matter, perhaps he will answer the same question as I put to him on Clause 2. This Clause provides for the suspension of the functions of the Flour Millers' Corporation to buy any stocks of home-grown millable wheat. One can always tell exactly the cost to the Treasury in a particular year of the deficiency payment made to the growers of home-grown wheat. Apparently the Committee is going on with the discussion of this Bill without any real knowledge of what is the estimated sum to be paid in the agricultural programme of the Government to the producer, at home, of wheat. We had the figure from the Minister of Food of £20,000,000 as a charge upon the Treasury in order to keep flour stable and avoid increasing the price of bread. That is averaged over the whole of the wheat supplies being handled by the Government —either imported or home-produced. It is fundamental that we should know what is to be the estimated cost to the Treasury of the home programme for the production of wheat.

Mr. Colville

The right hon. Member has put the question again, but I should still like a little longer before giving any detailed reply. Last year the corresponding payment was £9,000,000. It is difficult to give a definite figure because so much depends on causes which affect prices that really in 25 minutes I could give no nearer estimate than that.

Mr. Alexander

We are in this position. The Minister of Food has given us a total figure of £20,000,000, and apparently he has worked on some basis. That basis must cover the two kinds of wheat—imported and home-produced. How much of the £20,000,000 is in respect of home-produced wheat, and how much is in respect of imported wheat? Surely there must be people under the Gallery who can tell the right hon. Gentleman that straight away.

4.20 p.m.

Mr. J. Morgan

Is the price fixed to the farmers a true price in relation to world prices or an artificial price fixed by the Department for their own purposes? Unless we know, we shall not be able to have a true picture of what the amount is. If the farmer were allowed to go out into the free market, he would probably get 31s. 6d. Unless we know why the Department have fixed this artificial price to the farmer, we cannot get a true picture, and it is essential that we should know just what is involved in this transaction, how much agriculture is being assisted, and how much is necessary to assist imported prices in the consumer's loaf.

Mr. Colville

I cannot say, for the reasons I have already explained. It might be possible later to give rather more information. Obviously it is very difficult to forecast the figure, but I will endeavour to do so.

4.21 p.m.

Mr. T. Williams

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will obtain that information, because the Financial Memorandum refers to a figure of £6,000,000, and quite obviously the Department had some figure in mind as to what would hitherto have been a deficiency payment apart altogether from the general Treasury payment for wheat to keep prices of bread stable, as is being done at the present time. It does not seem to me to be difficult to arrive at the cost. Before the Bill was produced some calculation must have been made, and that calculation is embodied in the figure of £6,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman ought not only to give this information but should also have a great deal more information for us.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.