HC Deb 08 February 1940 vol 357 cc374-7
13. Mr. McGovern

asked the Minister of Labour the number of cases of conscientious objectors heard before the local tribunal at Glasgow; and the numbers, respectively, of complete refusals, non- combatant service ordered, and conditional exemptions granted up to 2nd February, 1940?

Mr. E. Brown

Up to 27th January, the latest date for which figures are available, the Glasgow Local Tribunal heard 465 cases. Of these 167 were removed from the conscientious objectors" register, 91 were ordered non-combatant service in the Forces, and 109 were registered conditionally on their undertaking civilian work.

Mr. McGovern

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of genuine conscientious objectors, many of whom are known to me, are being refused exemption by this tribunal, and can he explain why no representative has been sent to the tribunal who has any understanding of conscientious objectors, and why no representative sympathetic to their point of view is on the tribunal?

Mr. Brown

I would not accept either of the three assumptions of the hon. Gentleman. I would point out that the question he did not ask, namely, as to the number of unconditional exceptions, proves my point, for there were 98 such cases.

Mr. McGovern

Out of nearly 500 cases only 98 have been exempted. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very large number of genuine conscientious objectors who are being turned down and have not been interviewed in a properly sympathetic manner?

Mr. Brown

I am not aware of that.

14. Mr. McGovern

asked the Minister of Labour the number of cases of conscientious objectors heard before the appeal tribunal at Edinburgh; and the numbers, respectively, who were completely refused, granted conditional ex emption, or offered non-combatant service?

Mr. Brown

Up to 19th January the Scottish Division of the Appellate Tribunal heard 63 cases. Of these, 27 were removed from the conscientious objectors' register; 11 were registered conditionally on their undertaking civilian work; and 19 were ordered non-combatant service in the Forces.

Mr. McGovern

Again, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the considerable number of genuine conscientious objectors who have been turned down by this tribunal? Is he also aware that many of them have not been able to have a friend to state their case and support their evidence? Does the right hon. Gentleman know of the growing discontent at the action of these Tory die-hards who sit en the tribunal?

Mr. Brown

I am not aware that any of these assertions are accurate. Again, the question which the hon. Member did not ask, namely, as to the unconditional exemptions, proves that the tribunal took the other view because they revised decisions in six cases.

Mr. McGovern

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

15. Mr. McGovern

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that Mr. James Jones, 67, Auchenraith Avenue, Hamilton, was before the local tribunal at Glasgow on 24th January, 1940, claiming exemption on moral and religious grounds, and that the reason for his being refused exemption was that he had rot consulted his local priest and taken his advice as to whether or not he should appeal on conscientious grounds; and if he will set aside this decision and order a new hearing of the case?

Mr. Brown

I have no power to set aside the decisions of local tribunals or to order cases to be reheard, but applicants have an unrestricted right of appeal to the Appellate Tribunal within 21 days. I understand that Mr. Jones has been supplied with the necessary form of appeal.

Mr. McGovern

Does the Minister not consider it rather disgraceful that when a man appeals as a conscientious objector he should be asked why he did not consult his clergyman and bring him to the Tribunal? Is he aware that this Glasgow Tribunal have already had a Rabbi before them? Is it not against the provisions of the Act that official people should be brought from the Churches—

Mr. Speaker rose

—

Mr. McGovern

I want to raise this issue.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member has given notice that he is going to raise the subject on the Adjournment.

Mr. McGovern

This is an entirely different point. I intended to ask the Minister a question on this point.

Mr. Speaker

It is the same point.

Mr. McGovern

No, Mr. Speaker, it is not the same point. I am asking the Minister to consider—[Interruption]. I do not require any hon. Member to tell me what is a point of Order. There are so many Speakers in this House; it is very difficult. I wanted to ask the Minister whether he is aware that they are bringing official Church people before the Tribunal to certify the official Church attitude, and that has nothing to do with an individual conscientious objector, as an individual is responsible for his own conscience?

Mr. Brown

It is the desire of the whole House that an applicant should have the advantage of any friend or other person whom he may care to bring before the Tribunal.

Mr. McGovern

But I am complaining of the action of the Tribunal and not of the individual. I will raise the whole issue later.