HC Deb 07 February 1940 vol 357 cc337-43

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for public education in Scotland, for the Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh, including sundry grants in aid and grants to approved associations and other expenses in connection with the youth welfare."

8.55 p.m.

Mr. Woodburn

I would like to raise one or two points in connection with the expenditure of 5,000 consequent on the setting up of the National Youth Committee which, according to this declaration, is going to give grants to approved organisations. This amount, divided up amongst the burghs alone, gives a sum of about £30 each, and if we include the counties of Scotland the amount is infinitesimal compared with the task that is going to be undertaken in organising the youth of Scotland and diverting them to healthier activities. I would like to suggest, as an economy, the use of existing facilities in order to make less necessary the spending of money in this way. In a great number of towns and counties in Scotland large new housing areas have been established and in many cases they are far away from the centres where social activities are carried on. In order to establish social activities in these places you would require enormous expenditure of money and energy, and it would save much of this if more use were made of the existing schools to provide centres for the activities which people are prepared to initiate themselves. I think it is a disadvantage that this word "approved"should come in. I differ from some of my hon. Friends who have said that everything youth does must be approved by old people. If young people are only going to do what old people approve then they are starting where we left off.

Mr. Ede

Where we began very often.

Mr. Woodburn

Unless youth experiments and is to some extent rebellious it is not healthy, and I think we ought to allow youth to establish its own organisations and have facilities for carrying them on whether we approve or not. If, in these great housing areas, these young men and women are not allowed a centre in which to meet and carry on healthy activities, then their energies are diverted to channels which may in the long run prove more costly from a social point of view. If I may I will refer to an experiment conducted by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. T. Johnston) when, many years ago, a Scottish education authority could not get youth into the schools. He experimented by starting boxing and dancing classes and he allowed youth to run these classes themselves on the condition that nobody should attend unless they first of all enrolled in one of the educational classes. By that means the Scottish authority was able to make an increased claim on the Exchequer for grants for increased attendances at their ordinary classes.

There are many activities of youth of which I can see certain authorities not approving. The trade union movement and the Labour political movement are activities of which many local authorities do not approve, and it may be thought that by barring people from schools you can prevent youth thinking politically. I do not think that is possible. If people are going to discuss politics at street corners why should they not have the opportunity of discussing these things within the walls of a school? We have a Labour Youth Movement and I believe that the party opposite have also a Youth Group called the "Imps." Why should they not do their "imping" in a schoolroom instead of wandering about the streets at night and, perhaps, "imping" in the wrong way? I suggest there is nothing wrong with these political activities and that this idea of politics being not a normal part of healthy life is dangerous from the point of view of the State. I suggest that we ought to provide every facility for people carrying on their own organisations. If we do that we shall save a great deal of expense instead of trying to organise them into channels which we want them to follow, rather than those of their own bent.

In Edinburgh, for example, in some of the housing schemes where young trade unionists want to take part in Labour college classes and to study economics, economic geography, history, and other subjects, the education authority, simply because they do not approve of these young people studying these things under their own auspices, refuse to let them a schoolroom in which to carry on their activities. That may be one way of preventing them from carrying on their activities, but it does not prevent them from thinking, and it does not lead them to appreciate the democratic system any better if they are not allowed to discuss things in a reasonable way at the only centre which exists for that sort of thing in large, areas.

I should like to make one or two constructive suggestions in regard to the general development of the activities of youth. I think that in these schools there should be provided facilities for youth to store the apparatus which they use in their sporting activities. One of the difficulties which young men and women have is to find a place in which to keep their boots, bats, and cricket apparatus, footballs, jerseys, and so on; and in many schools it would be possible to provide some facilities for these clubs to store their sporting appliances. I agree that a great deal could be done by keeping the association of the school, and a development of the former pupils'associations would keep these young men and women in connection with the schools. But again, if that is to be done, it cannot be done along the hard and fast lines we like. We have to cater, for the activities in which youth itself wants to take part. In the long run, £5,000 will be far too little. I think advice should be taken from some of the people who have successfully run youth organisations. In many cases these youth organisations are themselves capable of raising money for their activities. While the grant-in-aid may be very useful, I hope it will not be limited simply to approved organisations, and that young people, trade unionists and others, will be allowed to form their own organisations, and provided they do not damage the schools and that they behave themselves in a civilised way, they ought to be allowed the facilities of the schools in their areas.

9.3 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Captain McEwen)

I think the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) was dealing somewhat widely with the subject of the Supplementary Estimate. It is true, as has been said, that there will be opportunities later in the month for discussing the subject of education on a somewhat wider basis. The point to-night is the Supplementary Estimate for £5,000 to be paid on account of the new body which has been set up, the Scottish Committee of the National Youth Committee. I do not think the fears which the hon.Member has expressed have very much ground. I entirely agree with him in his belief in the freedom which youth ought to enjoy and his distaste of older persons too much directing and overwhelming youth with advice; but of course, in the same breath the hon. Member went on to say that, while being entirely in favour of freedom, he wished them all to grow up into good Socialists and to think one way politically, a point of view which indeed comes properly and fittingly from the hon. Member, occupying the position which he does in his party.

I do not think it is necessary on this occasion to go into the details of this matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) has said a certain amount on the subject of the National Youth Committee and the reasons for which it was formed, and I could, if necessary, explain it still further, but a good deal of publicity has been given to this activity and I hope more publicity will be given to it. A circular dated 27th November was issued by the Scottish Education Department on this very subject. I will only say, on the matter of this Vote and the point raised by the hon. Member opposite, that £5,000, if looked at in a long view, is indeed very inadequate for the purpose, but I do not think we need take it that £5,000 is a sum which is going to suffice for years and years ahead. It is for immediate needs and those needs have been given publicity and will be discussed, I am certain, not only on one occasion but on many occasions in the House in future, when we shall have an opportunity of dealing with them much more fully than we can within the limits of the Debate to-night.

9.7 p.m.

Mr. Westwood

As I understand the position, we are being asked to vote £5,000 for the purpose of providing the funds necessary for the sub-committee for Scotland of the National Youth Committee, which is to take the place of the National Fitness Council, the work of which was suspended because of the outbreak of war. Time and again much unfair criticism has been levelled against the National Fitness Council and the work on which it was engaged. It had the terrific task of building up a new organisation and planning, and in Scotland a good deal of its planning in connection with the regional organisation turned out to be very useful at the outbreak of war, for that regional planning was practically accepted in connection with the regional planning for Civil Defence purposes. The work which the National Fitness Council did was preparatory work, and that work has now gone by the board because of the outbreak of war; consequently, we have not been able to get the full advantage of the hard spadework that was done by the National Advisory Council which dealt with the physical training and welfare of the youth of our country. The new committee is to take its place.

One of the difficulties that faced the National Fitness Council was the fact that direct grants were not made available, except in one special instance, to the local education authorities, and unless direct grants can be made to the local authorities for this initial work, there will not be a real success in dealing with this problem. The hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) made a special reference to approved associations, which are referred to in the explanatory note to the Supplementary Estimate. I would point out that, while I entirely agree with him that there should be freedom of organisation and that youth should have some say in connection with that organisation, surely it is right that before a grant is made, one should at least know the work that is to be done by the organisation in question. It is not so much a question of its work as of approving of the organisation itself for the purposes of the special grant. An application was made to the National Fitness Council for a special grant to assist the physical training and recreation facilities of the members of a miniature rifle club. The application was turned down on the ground that it would be of no use in the promotion of physical training and recreation. I presume that if national funds are to be used for the purpose of assisting organisations it will be the duty of any committee which is set up, to approve of an organisation before national funds are handed over to that organisation to help its work. I suggest that special grants ought to be made available to local education authorities as well as to approved associations.

We are told that this £5,000 is to meet the expenses of regional organising. I should like to know how many regional organisers have been appointed; how are they placed in Scotland for the purpose of carrying out their work, and what salaries are they being paid? Do they include any of the personnel originally engaged by the National Fitness Council? In this connection, I would support the complaint which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). On the outbreak of war these staffs were immediately disbanded. In some cases it was a shame. People were dismissed almost at a moment's notice and no provision whatever was made for them. I am not sure whether all have yet been replaced. It is true that none of them were permanent officials in the sense that our teachers are, but they were, at least, entitled to fair consideration, even though war had broken out. I would like the hon. and gallant Gentleman therefore to tell us how many of these are included in the appointments to which I have referred; what salaries are being paid and where these officials are placed for the purpose of carrying out what I hope will be the successful work of this new organisation.

9.14 p.m.

Captain McEwen

I think the speech of the hon. Gentleman opposite has to a large extent answered that of his hon. Friend behind him as far as the approved associations are concerned. As regards the regional officers four are to be appointed in Scotland. There are to be two regions in the North and two in the South and there are to be two women organisers and two men organisers. The women are to have £300 a year each and the men £400 a year each. So far, the two women organisers have already been appointed. They are Miss Scott, and Mrs. Watt. The two men organisers have yet to be appointed but it is hoped that the appointments will be made within the next few days.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for public education in Scotland, for the Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh, including sundry grants in aid, and grants to approved associations and other expenses in connection With youth welfare."

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