§ 10.30 p.m.
§ Mr. Rhys DaviesI beg to move, in page 2, line 15, after "application," to insert
(a specimen form of which shall be included with the notice).This is a purely administrative point. Where the policy holder has declared to the insurance company that he is suffering as a consequence of the war, the company can decide whether the policy shall be protected by this Bill. We want the insurance company to send with the notice dispatched to the policy holder a proper form upon which the policy holder can make his application. A large number of people are not conversant with the method to be adopted even when they know their legal rights. I am not sure that any Member will have read all that is contained in his insurance policies. I have heard people say that there are all manner of tricks in insurance policies and that they expected to get certain benefits from them, but when the happening occurs they find they have not read the policy and are not able to get benefit. It is amazing how many "acts of God" are included in an insurance policy.
§ 10.32 p.m.
§ The Attorney-GeneralThe Committee will have seen that the notice which has to be sent out is to be in a prescribed form. I give the Committee an assurance that it is intended that in that form it shall be made clear what particulars are required by the insurance company if it is desired to make an application. That is not what the hon. Gentleman wants. 364 He wants a form with a lot of questions and little spaces opposite them. My experience of these forms is that there is too much space opposite one question and not enough opposite another. We are anxious that the policy holder should understand what is wanted. We think it will meet the point if the form of notice says what particulars are wanted; the man can then write a letter stating what he has to say about the various particulars asked for.
§ 10.34 p.m.
§ Major MilnerI hope the Committee will not accept the proposal. The Bill already says that the notice has to contain
a statement in the prescribed form that an application may be made within 28 days and at a place specified in the notice to the industrial assurance company or collecting society, as the case may be, for protection from forfeiture on the ground that the default is due to circumstances arising directly or indirectly out of the war.All that the Attorney-General is promising is the same thing. He is going to put in the statement or notice which the company sends to the assured an indication—
§ The Attorney-GeneralLet us be clear about this. It is intended that the prescribed form should clearly indicate the class of particulars which the man has to give. The Amendment asks that there should be a form of application. A form of application may contain little or nothing. In my view the man should be told the sort of information which he has to give. It will not be actually what one would call a "form of application," but I think the object of the Amendment will be better served by our procedure.
§ Major MilnerI am obliged to the learned Attorney-General, but am I not right in assuming that his procedure will involve the assured in writing a letter? We all know the difficulty which many men and women, especially such as would take out small industrial policies, would have in expressing themselves clearly and with detail in a letter. What the mover of the Amendment desires is to have a tear-off strip, if you like, attached to the letter with questions which the assured person has nothing to do but to answer, and then to put it in an envelope—which might be enclosed with the letter sent to him—and post to the company. As against asking the assured person to write a letter this is a mere matter of printing 365 a form, either a loose form or one attached to the letter. Surely that would give less trouble. The Attorney-General's proposal will mean a lot of work for somebody. I have some knowledge of insurance agents and of the difficulties under which they are working, especially at the present time. If a letter has to be written many assured people will ask the agent to help to write it, whereas if there were a number of questions on a form to be answered the assured could do it himself, or, if he did need help, it would be a comparatively simple matter for the agent to help him. There is also the difficulty that this may involve the agent in a conflict with his company. After all he is the agent of the company, and it is his duty to look after their interests, though reputable agents do try to help their assured. A form of questions to be answered would be much the simpler and more satisfactory method, and I hope the Attorney-General will either accept the Amendment or agree to consider the point again.
§ Mr. SpensThe answer to the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) is that what the letter has to explain are the circumstances arising directly or indirectly out of the war which have caused the difficulty. With great respect I defy him to draft a simple form of question-and-answer which will apply to every case and will enable an individual to fill up the form showing the indirect circumstances which he feels justify him in making the application.
§ 10.39 p.m.
§ Mr. HarveyI hope very much that the Attorney-General, if he cannot accept these words, will give an assurance that he will consider the possibility of inserting in another place words which will give effect to the purpose of the Amendment. Anyone who has had experience of the work of the "poor man's lawyer"in a crowded industrial city will know how difficult simple people find it to write a letter, and how very much easier it is for them to fill in the answers to a number of questions on a form. Many poor people, and others, cannot frame a letter for themselves. Unless they get the guidance which a form might give, there is a danger of some people not being able to make their applications in legal form. I hope that the Attorney-General 366 will meet the spirit, if he is not able to meet the letter, of this Amendment.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI beg to move, in page 2, line 15, after "made," to insert "in writing."
The application must be in writing, whether on a form or in a letter.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 10.41 p.m.
§ Mr. JaggerI beg to move—
§ The Attorney-GeneralOn a point of Order. It is obvious that this Amendment seeks to do what we have sought to do by the proposed new Clause which is on the Paper. Therefore, I wondered whether we might discuss them at the same time.
§ The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Clifton Brown)That is not a point of Order. The matter is now in the hands of the hon. Gentleman who is moving his Amendment. We cannot discuss both the New Clause and the Amendment.
§ Mr. JaggerFurther to that point of Order. If I move my Amendment and we get the answer of the Attorney-General, it might make for greater progress.
I beg to move, in page 2, line 15, to leave out "twenty-eight days," and to insert "three months."
It is obvious what we are asking. A young man who is assured may have gone on a journey or taken to himself a wife, and we suggest that the period in the Bill is not sufficient, and that neither the company nor anyone else will suffer to an unreasonable extent.
§ 10.43 p.m.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI am sorry if I made an improper application, but I cannot reply on the hon. Gentleman's Amendment without a passing reference to the alternative way in which we think the problem which the hon. Gentleman has put might be met. I agree with what he said that in many cases there are reasonable grounds for suggesting that 28 days would be insufficient. We thought it better to keep the 28 days in, as the prima facieperiod and by allowing time for appeal up to six months. If the hon. Gentleman feels that this is satisfactory, perhaps he will withdraw his Amendment.
§ Mr. JaggerI beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI beg to move, in page 2, line 27, after "policy," to insert:
or serve on the applicant a further notice.I do not move the first of this batch of Amendments, in page 2, line 27, to leave out from "shall," to "protected," in line 28, and to insert "serve on the applicant a further notice to the effect that the policy is."I move the second of them, and a great many others which are consequential upon it. The reason is that, as the Bill stands, it provides that the protection is endorsed on the document. There are many cases in which policies have been mislaid or lost or cannot immediately be got at. Therefore it is desirable to provide for a record, in cases where there cannot immediately be an endorsement. This, and a consequential Amendment, provide that a notice can be served setting out the policies which are protected.Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In page 2, line 39, after "policy," insert" or serve on the applicant a further notice."—[The Attorney-General.]
§ 10.45 p.m.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI beg to move, in page 3, line 14, at the end, to add:
and any term of the policy providing that, on a default in the payment of premiums, the policy shall be converted into a free paid-up policy for a reduced amount or be surrendered for a cash payment, shall not apply as respects the said default or any subsequent default.It was brought to my notice after the Debate the other day that there were certain cases in which the policy itself had a condition that, if there was default in paying the premiums, the policy should automatically become a paid-up policy. The purpose of these words is to prevent that taking effect.Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ 10.46 p.m.
§ Mr. SpensI desire to point out one matter which does not seem to me to be satisfactory. While I fully appreciate 368 the reason why an insurance company may serve on the owner or any other person on his behalf the requisite notices, it appears to me to be dangerous that the final notice should be served on the applicant. What may happen in these cases is this. The owner may have gone off to the war. The first notice will arrive addressed to the owner at his house. Some member of the family will open it, and make an application on behalf of the owner. The insurance company or collecting society will investigate it, and if they come to an unfavourable conclusion they will send a notice to the applicant. As the time for appealing to the Commissioner passes by, and the applicant does nothing, the owner who is abroad and who knows nothing about it may lose all chances of appealing.
As the new Clause on the Paper deals with a somewhat similar point, I would suggest to the learned Attorney-General that he should consider at a later date whether a similar Amendment might not be made, so that if the owner finds an appeal has not been made for some good reason he should have further time in which to make the appeal. Otherwise, it seems to me that there is a possibility that owing to the negligence or ignorance or of some default on the part of somebody other than the owner, the owner may find himself unprotected.
Question put, and agreed to.