HC Deb 21 August 1940 vol 364 cc1414-21

Lords Amendment: In page 2, line 17, after "district" insert: or for the drainage of such fenland.

Mr. Deputy- Speaker (Colonel Clifton Brown)

This Amendment raises a question of Privilege.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. T. Williams)

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The Clause to which this Amendment relates provides for the making up of grass or soft roads into hard roads to enable the produce to be got off the land at times when vehicular traffic on these soft roads would otherwise be impossible. The Clause will apply only to certain limited areas in a few parts of the country. Since the Clause was drafted it has been found that, in addition to making up these roads, it is necessary in some cases to do drainage works as well. If these works were carried out by the drainage boards concerned, the cost would be recoverable from the owners—occppiers of the land by means of drainage rates. It would seem only reasonable, therefore, that if such drainage works are carried out at public expense, the cost should be recoverable from the owners subject to the limitation already contained in the Bill. The Amendment would enable this to be done.

8.36 p.m.

Mr. John Morgan (Doncaster)

The other place have made important Amendments to the original Bill, and this Amendment itself hangs a little on the definition of "Fenland," a term which is to be re—defined later. It represents a considerable advance on what was proposed before, because the work on these roads involves culverts and bridges. I had hoped that the Minister would have indicated how this work is to be carried out by county war agricultural committees. In the original discussion on this matter we talked as though it referred to Cambridgeshire and one or two other areas, but now it means that every agricultural committee will be involved at some stage or other, and will be committed to substantial drainage works in some places. Round the coasts and in areas like Sedgemoor and so on there are marshes which have not been treated for drainage works as the Fen districts have been. I am concerned to know where the plant and equipment to carry out these works are to be obtained by the agricultural committees. Will they delegate their authority to highway boards or how is the matter to be dealt with, now that the scope of the Bill has been so enlarged? I am concerned about that because I feel that the Bill is a much more substantial affair now than it was when it came before the House.

8.38 p.m.

Mr. T. Williams

I can assure my hon. friend that the areas to be dealt with will be a comparatively small number. If hard roads are to he made in those areas and any drainage schemes have to be carried out to make the hard roads worth while, it will obviously be the duty of the Department or the county executive to see that material and equipment are made available for that purpose. At present only one large scheme is to be undertaken, and any supplementary scheme will be effectively dealt with once the war executive committee feels that such work is necessary to improve the productivity of the land.

Question put, and agreed to.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

As this Amendment raises a question of Privilege a Special Entry will be made.

Lords Amendment: In page 2, line 40, at the end, insert: either of the following limits, that is to say.

Mr. T. Williams

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

These words were inserted to make it clear that in respect of the two alternatives (a) and (b) of Subsection (3) of this Clause the lower sum shall be recoverable.

Question put, and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 4, line 20, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In line 24, at the end, insert: (9) Any question as to whether the internal drainage board have failed to perform a duty imposed upon them under the last preceding Subsection shall be decided by the Minister, and the Minister may, if he is satisfied that they have so failed, give such directions to the Board as he thinks fit as to the steps to be taken to remedy the failure, and compliance with any such directions shall he enforceable, on the application of the Minister, by mandamus.

Mr. T. Williams

I beg to move. "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Various drainage authorities have represented to my right hon. Friend that it is desirable to make it clear that any enforcement of an Order made under Subsection (8) of this Clause shall be dealt with by the Minister and not by any private individuals. The Amendment accordingly provides that the question whether the Board has failed to comply with an Order shall be decided by the Minister, and that in such case the Minister shall give the necessary directions to remedy the failure and that the enforcement of such direction shall be by mandamus at the instance of the Minister only.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In line 30, at the end, insert: (10) In determining for the purposes of this Section whether, and the amount by which, the value for agricultural purposes of any land will be increased by the doing of the work, due regard shall be had to the provisions of die three last preceding Subsections.

Mr. T. Williams

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Clause enables the Minister to recover from the owners of the land benefited the cost of the works carried out in connection with the making up of the roads and any drainage works connected therewith, and also decide the manner in which any question in dispute shall be determined by arbitration. The new Subsection which has been inserted requires the arbitrator, in determining whether the value of the land will be increased by the works, to take into account the fact that the owner of the land will be liable to pay for the upkeep of the works after they are completed.

Mr. Price (Forest of Dean)

Does that mean that the whole cost of the work is to be recovered, or is it the increase in the value of the land due to the new works?

Mr. Williams

The sum to be recovered is determined according to one of the two conditions in Clause 2, Subsection 3, paragraphs (a) and (b), and the lesser of the two sums will have to be found by the whole of the property benefited.

Question put, and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment, in page 4, line 37, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In line 41, leave out "and" and insert: the expression "fenland" shall be construed generally and not as limited to land in that part of England commonly known as 'the Fens'; and.

Mr. T. Williams

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment makes it quite clear that the expression "fenland" does not only mean land of that character which is well known to exist in Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire and adjoining counties but other land of similar nature in other parts of England such as Sedgemoor and the Essex Marshes.

8.45 p.m.

Mr. J. Morgan

I feel that we are entitled to know a little more about this proposed alteration, because it is a substantial variation of what we previously understood was intended. We ought to know what category of land is in mind. The Minister suggested just now that it was a limited area. Has a survey been made? Is there any estimate of the land which will be affected, or is it to be left to the war agricultural committees to decide whether any particular land can be fitted into this term? Only this afternoon I was approached by an official of this House who has been served with an order to plough up 300 acres of Norfolk marshlands, and he cannot possibly do it without a road. He has to face a capital outlay of about £30 an acre upon land which hitherto has been used solely for cattle grazing. It is that class of land which will be largely drawn upon under the Minister's new programme for 2,000,000 more acres. There are also river valleys which are in a rather wet condition, the valleys of the Waveney and the Stort, which might very well come in from the point of view of water level, if that is to be the index of what is "fenland." How are we to know what is meant by "fenland" or "land of similar type," because some of the land in various parts of the country is in a very queer state, and if it is to be drawn into cultivation we shall need roads, and roads with substantial structures, culverts and so on.

That leads to the point that when powers were originally vested in war agricultural committees under this Bill it was understood they would be concerned with areas of land well understood by them, just as men in Cambridgeshire have practical experience of how to handle this class of land; but if we are to draw half the war agricultural committees of the country into the problem of dealing with this class of land, and divorce the highway authorities from the problem, those committees will be faced with the task of providing the plant and the men to build up roads. In the Fen district there are many grass roads, and often the roads are themselves drainage ramparts. What we must understand now is what role the war agricultural committee is going to play. Is it to be left to them to decide whether land is "fenland"?

I think the Minister has done well to accept such an Amendment enlarging the scope of the Bill, but nobody should be under any illusions as to the responsibility that it places upon war agricultural committees. It means that after this war they will remain in substantial charge of road work. They will have to collect the charges. We may find that there has grown up a whole series of private roads held by private owners who are paying the charges levied upon them under these schemes. We have been trying to break down the private road system, but we may find that we have built up a whole new series of private roads. I should prefer to have seen the highway authorities charged with the job, but, at any rate, I should like to know exactly what is the limit of the enlarged term, and which war agricultural committees are likely to be involved in this business, because this is a substantial matter, and I am not satisfied that the Ministry have made up their minds as to how much land will be involved.

8.49 p.m.

Mr. Price

I should like some further information on the scope of this Amendment and where the line is to be drawn, because there are fen-lands on a larger or smaller scale scattered all over the country. They are to be found in the famous mud flats of the Severn, where there is very fine grazing land indeed. Of course, very much depends upon the sluices and gates, and the small bays and creeks which drain these areas. There are also districts where reclamation has not yet taken place. Although I should very much like to see improvements going on everywhere in these small areas of fen, still I can see that complications may arise, and we ought to know the precise definition of "fen-land." I suggest that we might say land at a certain level below the sea. Would it be land liable to flood? We know that very large areas of land are liable to flood according to the quantity of rain that falls in a certain season. Much as I would like to see the scope of the Bill extended, I do not want to be landed in legal difficulties, and I think this House should be quite sure of the exact position. I am inclined to agree with my hon. Friend that it would be better if war agricultural executive committees were not saddled with this work, if it is going to be extensive. We have highway authorities and if this work is to be extended in scope it would be far better that the war agricultural executive committees should be relieved of it.

8.51 p.m.

Mr. T. Williams

I gladly respond to the request of my hon. Friends. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. J. Morgan) the category of land we have in mind is clearly fenland, but the difficulty of defining fenland is extreme. In Lincoln, fenland is called "fen," in Somerset it is called "moor," in Essex it is called "marsh" and there may be other terms in other parts of the country. But the department have in mind strictly limited areas for action under Clause 2 of this Bill. The areas are well defined. The work will involve little or no responsibility upon war agricultural executive committees and the Minister himself will direct action on advice from engineers, local authorities and others concerned in these special and extremely limited areas. I can therefore assure my hon. Friend that no excessive amount of work or responsibility will be imposed upon war agricultural executive committees. I can also assure him that the areas to he dealt with are strictly limited and although we hope that the work to be undertaken will restore good land to firstclass fertility, we shall not be making private roads all over the country comparable with the toll roads which did exist all over the country and which we are now engaged in getting rid of.

Mr. J. Morgan

May I ask whether any kind of survey has been made and why has this Amendment been accepted by the Minister?

Mr. Williams

Certain areas have been selected which are known to require the making of hard roads where green roads presently exist. It is because of requests from owners of uncultivated land that Clause 2 has been introduced. I think my hon. Friend will readily appreciate that no Clause such as this would have been introduced if a demand had not been made that action of this kind should be undertaken.

Mr. Price

Am I right in assuming that the interpretation of "fenland" will largely rest with the Minister?

Mr. Williams

Almost absolutely.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 5, line 8, at the end, insert: