HC Deb 15 August 1940 vol 364 cc952-5
37. Sir Jonah Walker-Smith

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Assistance Board act unfairly in cases of claims for supplementary pensions, by giving nil determinations in cases where the aged are living with sons-in-law, or with distant relatives, and also in cases where the old folks have invested their money in war savings in the belief that such investments would be ignored to the amount of £375; and, as the operation of a family means test is causing distress to many of the aged because they are being thrown upon their relatives for their sustenance, and thus deprived of their independence, will he institute an inquiry into the working of the Act, with a view to the withdrawal of the Measure?

Mr. M. MacDonald

The Act imposes on the Board the duty of taking into account (with certain exceptions) the resources of all members of the household of which the applicant for a supplementary pension is a member. The question whether a particular applicant is a member of a household is not one which under the Act can be decided on grounds of relationship but only after taking into consideration all the facts of the case. As regards war savings, as my hon. Friend is aware, this matter is under active consideration. With regard to the last part of the Question, I would point out that while no person is any worse off owing to the passing of the Act, over 600,000 people who had previously received nothing from the local authority, or from the State beyond their old age or widow's pension, are at present receiving supplementary pensions under it, and I do not therefore think there would be general agreement with a proposal that it should be repealed.

Sir J. Walker-Smith

How does the figure of 600,000 who are now receiving supplementary pensions compare with the number of those who previously received supplementary aid from public assistance?

Mr. MacDonald

Before the coming into force of the Act, some 270,000 old age pensioners were receiving additional payments from local authorities. Since the coming into force of the Act that figure has increased to some 950,000 receiving supplementary pensions. Perhaps I may add that, whereas the money involved at the time when this Act came into operation amounted to some £6,000,000 a year, the figure has now risen to something like £24,000,000.

Sir J. Walker-Smith

While that is the measure of the value of this Act to old age pensioners, there is obviously no reason whatever for the withdrawal of the Act, I entirely agree; but would the Minister tell me whether I am right in saying that any cases of hardship that may arise in the administration of the Act will receive the consideration of the Department?

Mr. MacDonald

Certainly, Sir.

Mr. Shinwell

Because of varying decisions by the Board's officers, are there not thousands of people who have been receiving nil determinations, and does the Minister not know that, in certain areas, the whole thing has become a perfect muddle; and will he not take steps to discuss the whole scheme?

Mr. MacDonald

I cannot accept that description, but clearly when such a scheme, involving, as I say, already 1,000,000 people comes into operation, I dare say there are individual cases where the assessment has not been quite what it should have been. All those matters will be looked into on appeal, or on action being taken by the hon. Members concerned, with a view to securing that the administration is exactly as this House desires it to be.

Mr. Silverman

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the public assistance investigation officers all over the country are treating the fact that an old age pensioner happens to live in the same house with a relative, as itself evidence that he belongs to the same household, and that they refuse to make a determination on that account? Will he not look into that evil, the existence of which is proved by the postbag of every hon. Member of this House?

40. Mr. Leslie

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the disappointment felt by old age pensioners in the county of Durham at the administration of the new Pensions Act, whereby many have been refused any allowance and others have received very meagre amounts; and whether he can state the number of appeals lodged by these old people?

Mr. MacDonald

As regards the first part of the Question, I am not aware of any general disappointment or dissatisfaction. This would seem to be borne out by the fact that up to 9th August, the latest date for which figures are available, 247 appeals have been lodged in the Board's administrative district of Durham out of 25,646 cases in which decisions have been given.

Mr. Leslie

Is the Minister not aware that pensioners who have been turned down were residing with sons or daughters, some of those sons having large families of six or more children? Why should their earnings be used against the pensioner?

Mr. MacDonald

I can assure the hon. Member that if there are cases where the intention of Parliament is being defeated in the administration of the Act, the Government are extremely anxious that these cases should be looked into. I cannot say more than that.

Mr. James Griffiths

Is the Minister not aware that many of the old people getting a shilling or two do not appeal because they do not think they have the right to do so? Will he consider this suggestion, because it is very important, that they should issue with the determination an appeal form? No appeal form is issued now, and the people do not know that they have the right to appeal.

Mr. MacDonald

I will certainly look into that matter. We are anxious that the old people concerned should know that they have this right to appeal. In fact, we have made the right as easy to carry out in practice as we could.

42. Mr. Lipson

asked the Minister of Health why supplementary old age pensions have been refused to Mr. and Mrs. Grinnell, of 2, Buckles Row, Grange Walk, Charlton Kings, Cheltenham, seeing that Mr. Grinnell is aged 87 and is nearly blind, that his wife is aged 68, and that their total combined income, including their old age pensions, is 23s. 1d. a week?

Mr. MacDonald

As the hon. Member will be aware, blind persons are expressly excluded from the scope of Part II of the Old Age and Widows Pensions Act, 1940, and are not, therefore, eligible for a supplementary pension. Such people are the responsibility of the appropriate local authority under the Blind Persons Acts, who have power to grant them allowances according to need. It may be that this case has been regarded as coming into this category. In any case I am having inquiry made into it and will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

Mr. Lipson

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him if he is aware that this case is typical of many in the Cheltenham area where these old age pensioners in need have had their applications for pensions refused? Will he give personal attention to those conditions?

Mr. MacDonald

My hon. Friend has sent me quite a number of cases, and I am giving attention to every one of them.

Mr. De la Bère

Perhaps my right hon. Friend will also take into account Evesham and the adjoining district.