HC Deb 04 April 1940 vol 359 cc431-8

Considered in Committee.

[Colonel Clifton Brown in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 8.—(Interpretation.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

8.46 p.m.

Mr. J. J. Davidson (Glasgow, Maryhill)

This Clause gives a definition of "National Service." Any person in training as a solicitor who undertakes national service shall have that service taken into consideration by the General Council of Solicitors in Scotland and the Law Society in England. National service is defined as service in the naval, military or air forces, or detention as a prisoner, military or civil, in any enemy country, or internment in an enemy or neutral country. It is also defined as any public service connected with or consequent upon the present emergency and being of a character approved by the Registrar. I would like to elicit from the Government a statement whether national service with the Auxiliary Fire Service or Air Raid Precautions will come under the category of service in the naval, military or air forces, or whether the character of the service is to be approved by the Registrar. If a man has undertaken A.R.P. work or service in the Auxiliary Fire Service and as a result has been taken from his studies, it is incumbent upon the Government to state that this service shall be fully considered.

Then there is the position of the conscientious objector. His Majesty's Opposition are completely in favour of securing an end to aggression, but the Prime Minister himself has made it clear that in this democracy every consideration will be given within reason to those who have honest and sincere conscientious objections to war. A student who is a conscientious objector may appear before a tribunal and agree to undertake work, say, of an agricultural character, or work which the tribunal may decide is of a national character. I would like to know, as no specific mention is made of this type of service, whether it will come under the national service definition and receive fair and honest consideration. What will the character of such service have to be, to be approved by the Registrar?

8.51 p.m.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Terence O'Connor)

I would say offhand that I should doubt whether every case in which a conscientious objector merely did what the hon. Gentleman has described as national service, which might mean simply returning to his occupation because it was deemed to be one in which he could do that service, could be called public service connected with the emergency. No doubt there might be cases where he would be performing a public service and where, as a term of his exemption, he might be required to do a public service.

Mr. Davidson

There is no specific mention of agriculture or of engineering, which are both services of national importance.

The Solicitor-General

But hardly public service connected with the emergency. I should have thought that these words applied to cases of non-combatant service in one of the units, such as the Red Cross, that would be a condition of exemption as a conscientious objector. For that reason, I should certainly not imagine that it could be said generally that anybody who was exempted on condition of doing work of national importance would automatically be entitled to claim that he could have his period of articles shortened or be exempted from the intermediate examination set by the Law Society. Whether that be so or not, what is certain is that even if he were a conscientious objector required to do national service which was public service, it would still remain within the discretion of the Registrar, which means the Law Society in England and the General Council of Solicitors in Scotland, as to whether he should have the advantages given by this Bill. It is inherent in the whole scheme of the Bill that there should be a discretion of that kind. Indeed, without some such discretion vested in generous terms it would be impossible to cover all the cases that it is desired to cover. I feel sure that so far as the substance of the hon. Member's point is concerned, he can rely upon the Law Society in England and the General Council in Scotland to exercise their discretion with the utmost generosity in the case of people who are engaged on public service.

Mr. Wedgwood Benn (Manchester, Gorton)

Is the position that so far as service in the naval, military and air forces and detention abroad are concerned, the articled clerk receives this advantage, but that when it comes to a man who is a conscientious objector or is performing another public service, he does not receive the rights conferred in the earlier Sub-sections but is dependent on the discretion of a new authority, namely, the Registrar or the Law Society?

The Solicitor-General

That is not quite so, because there is discretion all through the Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at Clause 1 he will see that it is in the discretion of the Council whether they shall grant exemption. There are, so to speak, two discretions, a discretion as to the character of the work undertaken, which is within the discretion of the Registrar, and the discretion of the Council as to whether that shall result in exemption being granted. Subject to that, the right hon. Gentleman's point is right, that if the man is, in fact, engaged in the service of the Crown that is a national service which enables him to apply for the discretion of the Council without further question. If, on the other hand, he is not in the service of the Crown, but doing a public service connected with the emergency, then it must be of a character which is approved by the Registrar before he can appeal for the discretion of the Council.

8.57 p.m.

Mr. Benn

That seems to me, on the face of it, to be objectionable, because this House has decided that conscientious objectors shall not be put in a worse position if a tribunal has found that their objections are well based, whereas this Clause gives to another authority the power to re-try their case. That appears to penalise conscientious objectors, who, Parliament has declared, should be in the same position as other persons.

8.58 p.m.

Mr. Davidson

The hon. and learned Gentleman has not answered the point about those who take service in the auxiliary fire service or other A.R.P. organisations. That is said to be work of national importance. My desire tonight is that while these powers are left with the Registrar and with the General Council of Solicitors, that at least they shall be able to look to the speeches of representatives of the Government for some guidance upon points which will crop up. As my right hon. Friend has stated, this Bill gives power to another individual to re-try the case of the conscientious objector or to decide whether the work he is undertaking on the ruling of a committee set up by the Government, in keeping with the Prime Minister's promise to conscientious objectors, is work of national importance. Take, for example, the case of a man whose conscientious objection has been found by the tribunal to be well based and who has agreed to undertake work in agriculture, which has been described as a national service, one for which we have enlisted an army of land girls. If he can prove that his undertaking of this work has debarred him from his studies will that be fully taken into account? Can the hon. and learned Gentleman give us some guidance as to the line which he would trust, as a Government representative, would be taken?

9.0 p.m.

The Solicitor-General

I think there has been some little confusion and that possibly I am not altogether free from blame for not having cleared it up. This is a widening provision, designed to give a generous discretion to the Registrar to decide in a doubtful case whether a man is performing a public service or not. It has nothing to do with his character as a conscientious objector. The instance given by the hon. Member of the auxiliary fireman is a good example. It may very well be the case, indeed, I should think it probably would be, that an auxiliary fireman would have no difficulty in satisfying the Registrar that his was service of a character of which he could approve, so as to send him forward to permit him to have an exemption. But the fact that he had undertaken that service on account of being a conscientious objector has got nothing to do with the matter at all. It only so happens that he undertook that work because he was a conscientious objector. The provision deals with the character of the work and not with the character of the persons, and so there is no question whatever of the conscientious objector, because he has a conscientious objection, being subjected to a scrutiny which by reason of our conscientious objection legislation we have recognised to be undesirable.

Because of the impossibility of putting into a sort of table the things that are public services without missing out a good many which we do not want to overlook, we leave the widest possible discretion to the Registrar, and the character of the individual really does not come within the Registrar's scope and it would be wrong of him to take it into account.

Mr. Benn

Then we can take it that the Solicitor-General has assured us that this Sub-section in no way denies to a conscientious objector the protection of the law?

The Solicitor-General

Certainly, that is so.

CLAUSE 9.—(Power to reckon national service as service under indenture of apprenticeship for the purposes of the Solicitors (Scotland) Act, 1933.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

9.3 p.m.

Mr. Davidson

I wish to raise a question upon the first paragraph of this Clause, which says: Where any person, who has been or shall be during the period of the present emergency engaged in national service, has entered or shall enter into an indenture of apprenticeship in terms of the Solicitors (Scotland) Act, 1933, the General Council of Solicitors in Scotland may at their discretion permit the whole or any part of the period of such service to be reckoned as actual service under such indenture for the purposes of the said Act. I ask the Lord Advocate whether he does not consider that these are very wide powers to give to the General Council of Solicitors in Scotland? Men may serve in this war for periods of two, three or six months, or one or two years, or for however long the war may last, and while I make no allegations against this Council, who I trust will be fair-minded men of good character, I say that it is not right that they should have the right of differentiating among applicants as to how much of the period of service shall be counted. Why are we giving the Council the power to say to one man, "Your three years shall count" and to another man, "Only two years of your three years shall count"? It is entirely within their discretion to permit the whole or any part of the period of service to count. I think the Lord Advocate will recognise that my main purpose is to make this Clause as generous as possible to those who give service to the nation in this emergency, and I feel that this provision would leave the General Council of Solicitors with so much power that influences may be brought to bear—as they have been with regard to appointments in Scotland in the past—that wires may be pulled, to have this or that much of the period of service counted. A very dangerous position would be set up. I would like to know what guidance or control the Government and the Lord Advocate have over any such decision that may be come to by this General Council.

9.6 p.m.

The Lord Advocate (Mr. T. M. Cooper)

The hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Davidson) has perhaps not observed that the provisions in Clause 9 in regard to Scotland are the precise counterpart of the provisions in Clause 3 in regard to England. He will find in Clause 3, which the Committee have already passed, that the council, which there means the Council of the Law Society, is given a discretion in relation to the articles of the articled clerk, and that that discretion is substantially identical with that which it is proposed to confer upon the General Council of Solicitors as regards the indentured clerk or Scottish apprentice.

Mr. Davidson

That is not the point of substance.

The Lord Advocate

The short point which I was going to make at the outset was that it would be rather odd for objection to be taken to the scheme of Clause 9 when the Committee has already passed an identical scheme in Clause 3. Be that as it may, the General Council of Solicitors in Scotland is a body set up under Statute, the Solicitors (Scotland) Act, 1933, with a mass of powers and duties conferred upon it by Parliament, in regard to the control, education, training and admission of solicitors in Scotland. It is the governing body, exercising functions comparable with those of the Law Society in England. They are discharging to-day, under statutory direction and under an overriding control, powers and discretions very similar to those proposed to be conferred upon them by this Clause. As the Solicitor-General has just said with regard to Clause 8, this is an empowering Clause to give them a slightly wider discretion in one particular respect than they already possess by enabling them to deal with apprentices who are engaged on national service.

I feel strongly that if the hon. Gentleman really entertains any idea that, in the discharge of its duties under the Clause, the General Council would be actuated by what he described as influence or the pulling of wires, any such suggestion is wholly without the slightest foundation. From my experience of the work of the General Council in the education and training of solicitors in Scotland I have the utmost confidence in the way in which this power will be used. If the power is not given, the only result will be that when the war is over and men return from the Services, from prisons or from internment camps, they may have to wait unduly long before they can get into positions where they can earn a living. I commend the Clause to the Committee as a proper and reasonable one. The suggestions and apprehensions of the hon. Member are without any foundation whatever.

9.11 p.m.

Mr. Davidson

The right hon. Gentleman has not met the point which I submitted. It may be all very well to stand up and make a general defence of the General Council of Solicitors and to say that in no circumstances need we fear their being influenced. I would remind the Lord Advocate that some time ago I raised a question with regard to the appointment of advocates in Scotland. I did so because I had received from the Government's solicitors in Scotland the definite statement that preference was being given to certain individuals. Therefore, to say that we need have no fear and that such suspicions need not be entertained, is completely to blind oneself to the fact that among solicitors in Scotland there has for a long period been very much dissatisfaction at wire pulling and preferential treatment being given in regard to certain appointments. I think, therefore, that I am on safe ground in this matter. May I ask the Lord Advocate whether he can say what the position will be? A man may come before the General Council of Solicitors after having served in His Majesty's Forces. They must put in two years bona fide, but if a man has three years' service and the council decide that only one year shall be counted, has the man any right of appeal, say, to the Lord Advocate himself?

The Lord Advocate

No.

Mr. Davidson

Is he completely and wholly at the mercy, and has he to accept the decisions, of the General Council of Solicitors?

The Lord Advocate indicated assent.

Mr. Davidson

I think right of appeal should have been provided for men who have given service and who naturally desire the maximum amount of that service to be counted. They should have a right of appeal to the Department of the right hon. Gentleman himself. That would have been a fair concession to make to men who have given up for the sake of their country what were often very important studies in a very important profession. I am very disappointed. I do not desire in any way to hold this Bill back, because certain improvements are contained in it, but I am completely and thoroughly disappointed with the failure of the Lord Advocate and the Government to protect the interests of the men, and at leaving them completely in the hands of an outside body. The Government, having accepted their service, ought to see to it that full and adequate recompense is given to them for any services they may have rendered to the nation.

Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

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