HC Deb 15 September 1939 vol 351 cc907-16

11.32 a.m.

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, after "Labour," to insert "and National Service."

This Amendment follows upon the Order-in-Council which makes the Minister of Labour the Minister of Labour and National Service.

Amendment agreed to.

11.33 a.m.

Mr. David Grenfell

I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, at the end, to insert: Provided that before making an order under this Sub-section the Minister shall refer a draft of the order proposed to be made to a committee appointed by him, consisting of a chairman and equal numbers of members representing, respectively, organisations of workers and organisations of employers which appear to him to be concerned; and the Minister may pay to the chairman of any such Committee as aforesaid such remuneration as the Minister may, with the approval of the Treasury, determine. This Amendment, which stands in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and other Members, is the main Amendment to the Bill. It is the Amendment which the Minister kindly consented to accept some 10 days ago. It has now been put into its final form, and I wish to say that we very much appreciate the way in which the Minister has responded to the natural request for assurances by Members on this side in particular and, I am sure, by many Members on the other side, too. It is now proposed that the Minister shall refer any Draft Order which he proposes to issue to a Committee appointed by him consisting of a chairman and equal numbers of members representing respectively organisations of workers and organisations of employers which appear to him to be concerned. The employers' organisations are in existence, and the workmen's organisations are in existence in the form of trade unions, and they are accustomed to meet regularly to discuss matters concerning their industries, but in this particular regard the Minister is making an innovation. He will refer to the Committee any Order which he proposes to bring in and that is a very valuable innovation, because it will ensure that any possible grievances may be anticipated, and as all the relevant information will be open to the Committee the Minister will then draft his Order with a full knowledge of the facts gleaned in as impartial a way as possible. There is another part of the Amendment which declares that the Minister may pay to the chairman of such a committee such remuneration as may be determined, with the approval of the Treasury. The Minister may require to appoint a chairman who is not a salaried person, a quite independent person who will act in an independent way on this Committee, and I wish to say that I hope the Minister will not oppose this proposal.

11.35 a.m.

Mr. Mander

I cordially support this Amendment, which makes the Bill very much better than otherwise would be the case, but there is one question about which I am not clear. The position is perfectly satisfactory in so far as there are trade union and employers' organisations throughout industry, but, unfortunately, there are cases where the workers are not organised in any union. I greatly deplore that they are not in any union. It will appear from the wording of the Bill that in such cases the workers' points of view will have no opportunity of being considered, and I would ask the Minister whether it is contemplated that in a case of that kind representatives of the workers concerned will be appointed, to include members of the unions to which those workers might belong if they choose and to which, in all probability, they will belong after effective service has been rendered to them in this way. If that cannot be done, does the Minister select persons who may be taken in a sense as the representatives of those workers so that their case may be considered? It is possible that there are employers who are not organised, but I am concerned now only with the workers. I am sure that the Minister will appreciate that there is a point to be met and I should be very glad if he would indicate in what manner it is proposed to deal with it.

Mr. Jagger

Would the Minister give some kind of indication of the qualifications of the Chairman? Is it intended that he shall be a legal man? In what other ways are these chairmen to be qualified?

Mr. E. Brown

I made clear to the House yesterday the intention of this Amendment, so I need do no more now than answer the questions which have been put. I am obliged to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) for his kind observations. In reply to the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) I would point out that where there is no organisation in a particular industry we shall find out to whom it will be best to refer these matters. We shall have a general discussion with the Trade Union Congress, or the organisation which appears to be representative.

Mr. Mander

Even if the workers do not intend to belong to the union.

Mr. Brown

The issue is not whether the men concerned belong to the union or not, but the order which it is proposed to make. The only way to get the order discussed is to do what we propose to do here, which is to put the responsibility upon the shoulders of those who can exercise responsibility. In regard to the chairman, we have nothing in mind except that he must be a man of absolute independence and a capable man acceptable to the Government and both sides, a man in whom the country can have trust. He will exercise his judgment in these matters.

Amendment agreed to.

11.39 a.m.

Mr. E. Brown

I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, at the end, to insert:

  1. " (2) The Minister shall not, by virtue of any order made under this Section, refuse consent to the engagement or re-engagement of an employéunless he is satisfied that an 910 opportunity of suitable alternative employment is available to the employé; and, when he refuses consent, he shall notify to the employéany opportunity which he considers suitable, and the employémay appeal to the court of referees constituted under the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935, which acts for the district in which he resides, and if that court is satisfied that no such opportunity as aforesaid was available to him, the court shall allow the appeal, and accordingly the consent of the Minister shall be deemed to have been given as from the date of the decision of the court.
  2. (3)Where the appeal of an employéis allowed under the last foregoing Sub-section, the court shall, in accordance with regulations made by the Minister with the consent of the Treasury, award to the employécompensation in respect of any loss occasioned to him by reason of the refusal against which the appeal was brought, and such compensation shall be paid as part of the expenses of the Minister under this Act.
  3. (4)The regulations made under this Section shall make provision as to the compensation which may be awarded under the last foregoing Sub-section and as to the assessment of such compensation, and the regulations shall in particular provide for securing that benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1935 to 1939, shall not be payable in respect of which such compensation has been awarded."
I am moving this Amendment instead of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) because it is a matter concerned with finance. I intend to add nothing to what I said yesterday except that the Amendment carries out the agreement which has been arrived at. I think the House will be glad to accept it, as it was agreed to yesterday.

11.40 a.m.

Mr. Aneurin Bevan

Is there any provision in the Amendment by which a workman can appeal against a decision by an employer? Suppose it is the employer who acts and who says: "I dismiss this workman for a variety of reasons," which, in the opinion of the workman may not be reasonable. A limitation is imposed upon an employé"; I cannot satisfy myself that a limitation is placed also upon the actions of employers.

Mr. Brown

The limitation upon the action of the employer is the limitation in the Bill, which does not deal with a situation such as that raised by the hon. Member. It is not meant to do so. I can imagine that if I had had anything about that matter in the Bill it might have led to a great deal more controversy than we have already had. That matter must be settled by the normal machinery.

Mr. Bevan

I know, but the right hon. Gentleman has said that there is a limitation upon the employéIf an employétries to transfer himself from one part of industry to another, the Ministry may say, "No, you ought not to do so." He can appeal against that. But an em-ployécannot appeal against dismissal by the employer. I realise from my own trade union experience that you do not want too much legislation in these matters. The employéwill have the protection of his trade union. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the trade unions' power against employers is ultimately that of invoking the right to strike. That is a power which we are anxious not to invoke in the present circumstances. I should have thought it would have been desirable to put a limitation upon employers.

11.43 a.m.

Mr. James Griffiths

I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would explain one point in Sub-section (4) of this Amendment. It says: The regulations made under this Section shall make provision as to the compensation which may be awarded under the last foregoing Sub-section and as to the assessment of such compensation, and the regulations shall in particular provide for securing that benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1935 to 1939, shall not be payable in respect of which such compensation has been awarded. There will, obviously, be a time lag between the appeal and the case being heard. Is the man concerned to be entitled to unemployment pay in the meantime?

Mr. Brown

We may be sure that the arrangements will be that, if a man has not received his money he will have benefit if he is otherwise entitled, up to the time that he does receive his compensation.

Mr. Viant

Assuming that a man is paid during the period of appeal and that he loses his appeal, what will be the position in that case?

Mr. Brown

I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising that point. We shall discuss all these regulations with the appropriate bodies and the hon. Member may be sure that all these points will be brought up and gone into, so that we may see that justice is done.

Sir Stafford Cripps

May I draw the Minister's attention to the last few words of the Amendment: benefit … shall not be payable in respect of which such compensation has been awarded. Those words seem to me to mean absolutely nothing.

Mr. Brown

We received the Order Papers very late this morning, and I am much obliged to the hon. and learned Member for pointing this out. Perhaps I may be allowed, with the permission of the Chairman of the Committee, to move an Amendment to put it right.

Committee signified assent.

Mr. Brown

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 18, to leave out from "1939" to the end, and to insert: shall not be payable in respect of any period in respect of which such compensation has been awarded.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Griffiths

I take it that the words "shall not be payable "will not preclude the man from receiving benefit?

Mr. Brown

No, Sir.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

11.46 a.m.

Mr. Duncan

There is one point that I wish to raise. It refers to the position of the Press, particularly the local Press in the country, in regard to the acceptance of advertisements. Sub-section 1 (a) says that an employer shall not "publish any advertisement." It is quite clear that if he publishes a notice on a factory gate the Press is not concerned, but if he publishes an advertisement in the local paper the Press may be liable. The local Press at the moment are having great difficulties in getting paper and are suffering through the loss of advertisements, and if they have, in addition, to search the columns of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" in order to see what forms of labour are covered by regulation, it seems unfair. I hope that my right hon. Friend, if he cannot amend the Bill in another place to cover this point, will give some assurance that the Press will not be held liable, at any rate for what they do inadvertently.

11.48 a.m.

Mr. Rhys Davies

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that in recent months employers doing contract works for the Government have not advertised for labour in this country, but have advertised for Irish labour in Irish newspapers. I wonder whether the order will include some provision to prevent that.

11.49 a.m.

Mr. E. Brown

I shall have to consider that point in making the order, but I would point out that the situation now is not quite the same as before. As the hon. Member knows, there has been a movement from England to Ireland in recent months. In reply to the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for North Kensington (Mr. Duncan), I would explain, first, that the words follow the form used in other Acts of Parliament, which have worked not unreasonably. The point he raises will arise only if the Minister acts unreasonably. I can give the assurance that there is no intention to act unreasonably. I will look into the point, but I do not see at the moment any way in which I can amend the Bill without changing the whole principle.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4—(Provisions as to orders.)

Mr. E. Brown

I beg to move, in page 3, line 33, after "order," to insert "or regulation."

This Amendment is consequential on the fact that we have, in the Amendments which have been agreed to, given power to make regulations.

Amendment agreed to.

11.52 a.m.

Mr. Grenfell

I beg to move, in page 3, line 35, after "Parliament", to insert: and together with any such order there shall be laid before Parliament a copy of any report made by a committee constituted in accordance with the provisions of this Act which has been made within such time as may have been notified in the committee by the Minister at the time of the reference. This is an important Amendment, and I understand the Minister has no objection to it. This would put the House in possession of any information upon which orders are to be made. The committee will report to the Minister, and the Minister will be responsible for submitting a copy of the report to the House. We have stressed the need for the maintenance of the utmost confidence in the minds of those who represent labour in this country. If this Amendment is agreed to, Members of all parties will be able to scan that information and see exactly what is to be done, what is the basis upon which an Order has been issued, and what is the scope of the order itself.

11.53 a.m.

Mr. Mander

This is a very valuable-Amendment. It will be most useful to have this information laid before the House on these occasions. I notice, however, that the Amendment says that the report shall be laid: within such time as may have been notified to the committee by the Minister at the time of the reference. Does that mean that if for any reason—perhaps through no fault of the committee—they are not able to complete their proceedings within the time, no such report shall be laid before the House?

Mr. E. Brown

We want to make sure that it comes within the time allowed.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 3, line 35, after "order, insert" or regulation."

In line 41, after "order," insert "or regulation."

In page 4, line 1, after "order," insert "or regulation."

In line 4, at the end, insert "or regulation." —[Mr. E. Brown.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Remaining Clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE. —(Saving for engagements effected in accordance with trade union arrangements.)

Where the engagement or re-engagement of employees by employers is effected in accordance with arrangements made, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, between an employer or any organisation of employers and a trade union, being arrangements approved by the Minister, and in accordance with such directions, if any, as may be given by the Minister with respect to the operation of the arrangements, any provisions of an order made under subsection (i) of section one of this Act having effect by virtue of paragraph (b) of that subsection shall not apply to the engagement or re-engagement. —[Mr. Grenfell.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

11.56 a.m.

Mr. Grenfell

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time." This Clause is introduced to provide for the continuation of the well-established custom of the regulation of the entry into employment by the trade unions and the employers. Many trade unions have made that provision, which has proved highly satisfactory, and they are anxious to retain it. It is one of the conditions of our support of this Bill that this provision should be made plain. The employers have no objection to it, and I do not think that this House would have any objection to the continuation of a practice which makes for peace and efficiency in the manning and staffing of various industries. I understand that a very small proportion of the bulk of employed labour in this country will come under this arrangement, but it is deemed to be valuable in the cases where it applies. I am moving this new Clause with the consent, I understand, of organised labour and of employers.

11.57 a.m.

Mr. Graham White

I believe that there will not only be no objection to this Clause, but that it is generally desirable that such a provision should be continued. I take it that it will cover all the arrangements which have been working satisfactorily for some time past. I suppose it does not preclude the practice, which has grown up, and which is beneficial in some directions, of employment exchanges working on lists supplied by employers, and sometimes even by trade unions. These lists will enable a short cut to be taken with great convenience to the men who will be employed.

11.58 a.m.

Mr. E. Brown

The Bill not only does not preclude that, but it goes further and says: Arrangements made, whether before or after the commencement of this Act. It does not merely cover all arrangements which work harmoniously now, but all similar arrangements in future which may develop as time goes on. If there is development of this very desirable practice, it will be automatic.

Mr. J. Griffiths

In the mining industry an arrangement exists between the two sides in the industry, and I should like to know whether that will come under the provision?

Mr. E. Brown

Certainly.

Question "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.

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