HC Deb 06 September 1939 vol 351 cc537-41
10. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Minister of Pensions whether the officers and crew of the steamship "Athenia" will come within the scope of the legislation relating to personal injuries and insurance of personal effects; and whether their claims will be expeditiously dealt with?

The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley)

The officers and crew of the steamship "Athenia" will certainly come within the scope of the recent legislation with regard both to personal injuries and to loss of effects. Claims under the former head will be dealt with by my Department, which has taken steps to obtain the earliest possible information as to the casualties, and when these are known there will be no delay in dealing with any claims which may arise. Claims under the latter head will be dealt with by the Board of Trade who, I understand, have made arrangements to deal with them without any delay. In fact a considerable number of men have already received compensation.

Mr. Shinwell

I am obliged to the Minister for the answer. May I ask whether the benefits of this legislation will be extended to those passengers, British subjects, who were proceeding to Canada?

Sir W. Womersley

As far as passengers are concerned, payment is being made by myself under the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act of 1939, which covers physical injury or death of those persons ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom and passing there from in the course of their duties. The other passengers will not be eligible for such contributions.

Mr. Foot

Can the Minister say how soon the scheme will be ready?

Sir W, Womersley

The scheme is practically ready now and will be published as soon as possible.

Mr. N. Maclean

What attitude is being adopted with regard to the families of members of the crew who have been killed in this tragedy?

Sir W. Womersley

I immediately sent one of my principal officers to Glasgow to work in co-operation with my chief officer there, to get into touch with the steamship company, ascertain the names of the men reported killed and get immediately in touch with their families.

Mr. A. V. Alexander

(by Private Notice) asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now able to give any further information as to the sinking of the steamship "Athenia," the casualties, the number of survivors, and in particular, the cause of the disaster?

The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Churchill)

Yes, Sir. Statements have now been taken on oath from the Chief Officer and numerous survivors, both British and American, which enable a fuller picture to be given than was possible on Monday.

I regret to inform the House that the disaster may prove to be of greater magnitude than was indicated by earlier reports. As far as can be ascertained there were on board 1,418 persons, of whom 315 were crew and 1,103 were passengers, some 800 of whom possessed British or European passports, and over 300 possessed passports of the United States of America.

It is now clearly established that the disaster was due to an attack, without warning, by a submarine. At 7.45 p.m. local time on the night of Sunday, 3rd September, a torpedo struck the ship abaft the engine room on the port side when she was 250 miles north-west of the coast of Ireland. Soon after the torpedo struck the ship the submarine came to the surface and fired a shell which exploded on "C" deck. The submarine cruised around the sinking ship and was seen by numerous persons, including American survivors, a considerable number of whom—I think 12 or more—have given affidavits to this effect.

The House will realise that owing to the nature of the disaster accurate details of the number or the names of the victims cannot yet be ascertained. No estimate can be made as to how many were killed at the first explosion, nor as to the numbers drowned by the reported capsizing of several boats after the passengers had taken to them. Survivors have been picked up by two British destroyers, the "Knute Nelson," the "City of Flint," and it is hoped by a Swedish yacht. At present some 125 passengers and crew are unaccounted for. It is still possible that a number of these may be aboard the Swedish yacht. Every effort is being made, by wireless and otherwise, by the Admiralty and the Donaldson Atlantic Line, the owners of the ship, to ascertain the names of the survivors. The steamship "Athenia" was not defensively armed—she carried no guns and her decks had not even been strengthened for this purpose. The House will wish me, I know, to convey on their behalf our profound sympathy with the relatives of those who may have been bereaved by this outrage, and also to those who at this moment are racked with the anguish of uncertainty and suspense.

Mr. Alexander

May I ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he does not consider that this is a very different story regarding the consideration of the safety of the crew and passengers from that which is reported in respect of the sinking of the German ships "Olinda" and "Carl Fritzen"?

Mr. Churchill

There could not be two more distinct and opposite cases. It will be found that the action taken in regard to these two German vessels is in accord with the accepted principles of international law. Every provision was made for the safety of the crew and the occupants of the vessels—they were not passenger ships—who were provided for in every respect before the vessels were sunk, and their lives are saved; and I observe that a paper of a neutral country, the United States, the "New York Post," stresses that the crew were given time to pack their belongings and take to the boats, and also that the captain of one of the ships, on arrival at Montevideo, expressed his gratitude for the manner in which they were treated.

Mr. Alexander

May I ask whether the First Lord of the Admiralty will be able to make a further statement with regard to these other ships if a question is put to him to-morrow, and whether, with regard to the capsizing in some cases of the boats of the "Athenia," there will be the usual Board of Trade inquiry?

Mr. Churchill

I should hope to be able to give the House any information desired.

Mr. Lambert

Did this submarine leave Germany after the declaration of war, or was she waiting in anticipation of war?

Mr. Churchill

I am afraid 1 cannot answer that at the moment, but if my right hon. Friend will put the point tomorrow, I will have the times taken and a calculation made.

Sir Herbert Williams

How could a German submarine travel 1,500 miles in eight hours?

Mr. R. Gibson

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that several hundred of the survivors were landed in Greenock and many were received into the Greenock Royal Infirmary, and can he say how many are detained there and in such institutions elsewhere in the country?

Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew

Did my right hon. Friend say 7.45 a.m. on Sunday?

Mr. Churchill

7.45 p.m.

Mr. N. Maclean

Is it not the case that, since the tragedy happened on Sunday evening and the ship left Glasgow, called at Greenock and then at Liverpool, she must have left the place of departure at Glasgow prior to the declaration of war being published?

Mr. Churchill

I think there is not the slightest doubt of that. This vessel left before the declaration of war on a peaceful mission, a totally unarmed ship taking passengers and returning Americans back across the Atlantic. It is quite clear, from the hours mentioned, that the submarine must have been in position waiting to pick up a prey upon the route. Therefore, the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert) is perfectly clear.

Mr. Cassells

Having regard to the original answer and the fact that I saw the "Athenia" a few hours before this unfortunate tragedy, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether we may have a definite assurance from him that the "Athenia" was in no way visibly or otherwise armed?

Mr. Churchill indicated assent.

Sir Assheton Pownall

Would not the two German ships that were sunk have been of some use to us if we had kept them?

Mr. Churchill

That had occurred to me.

Mr. Benjamin Smith

While not implying any criticism of the condition of the ship, but having regard to many statements made by persons rescued that the boats were dropped 30 feet from the davits and that in at least one case it was stated that one fid was not drawn, meaning that she went either by the bow or by the stern, would the First Lord undertake to see that every ship, before going to sea, has her davits and the whole of her gear thoroughly overhauled so as to give the fullest chance of rescue?

Mr. Churchill

Obviously, all our tackle should be looked over, but that is a matter, I think, which is more for the Board of Trade.

Commander Sir Archibald South by

Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that ships leaving this country with refugees for places abroad should not carry more passengers than there is accommodation for in the boats provided in case of emergency?

Mr. Churchill

That is a valuable point which will no doubt be noted by the Department concerned.