EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT DEPARTMENTS (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL. (Hansard, 6 September 1939)

§ Mr. Pethick-Lawrence
I am glad we have had this interval between the introduction of the Bill and the Second Reading stage to-day because it has given me the opportunity of a further discussion with the Comptroller and Auditor-General upon a point. As we left the Bill yesterday, it certainly seemed as though the abrogation of this counter signature by the Comptroller and Auditor-General would mean that any irregularity would not really be brought to the notice of the House of Commons until a considerable time had elapsed. The Comptroller and Auditor-General authorises me to say that that is not the case. Perhaps I 559 should explain that the Comptroller and Auditor-General is not a civil servant. He is a servant of the House of Commons and, therefore, is in an independent position, and his statements are statements which the House is entitled to hear. That would not be the case if he were a civil servant, because then, his mouthpiece would be a Minister.
The Comptroller and Auditor-General has pointed out to me that if there were to be an irregularity, he would find it out in a very short space of time, possibly a matter of a few hours and certainly of a few days, and he has authorised me to state on his behalf that if such an irregularity were committed and he were able to find it out very shortly, he would regard it as his duty to take steps to inform Parliament at the very earliest possible moment. That does relieve the position from the anxieties which several of us felt when we first saw the text of this Measure. In view of that and of the statement which the Comptroller and Auditor-General has authorised me to make on his behalf, I do not propose to offer any opposition to the further passage of this Bill.

§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon)
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has been able to use the interval to ascertain the true position. As I said yesterday, the change that we were proposing to make in the altered circumstances was not of a fundamental character. Perhaps for convenience I might make a statement on the position in my own terms, though naturally I am in entire agreement with what the right hon. Gentleman has now ascertained. Under normal practice, when the Treasury asks for a credit it does not simply send a request to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but sends with the request all such documents as are necessary for the Comptroller and Auditor-General to form the opinion whether he ought to give the credit. The reason for the Bill is that circumstances might arise during the war in which that operation could not very well be performed, owing to disturbances 560 such as we can easily imagine. Although it might not be performed at the moment, it would seem most unlikely that it would take more than a day or two to get the documents to him, although in the meantime the money will have been issued. If the occasion arises the Treasury intend to continue to send such documents to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, even though it may be two or three days later, and, of course, if there were any irregularity, steps would be taken to bring it to the notice of the House.

§ Mr. Benson
I think it is rather unfortunate that there is not in the Bill some time-limit as to supplying all this information to the Comptroller and Auditor-General after the credit has been granted. I accept all that the Chancellor says with regard to the probable working of things and the intentions of the Treasury, but this is such a fundamental, constitutional point that I think the safeguards ought to have been embodied in legislation.