HC Deb 05 September 1939 vol 351 cc450-5

Considered in Committee.

[Sir Dennis Herbert in the Chair.]

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill

CLAUSE 2 — (War service of persons training or trained as teachers.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

3.23p.m.

Mr. Cove

I should be obliged if the Parliamentary Secretary would say a word or two about Sub-section (5) of this Clause, which ends with the words: the Board may determine to be the date on which that course would have been completed shall be treated as a period of contributory service. While the provisions passed during the last War were generally satisfactory, there were one or two detailed cases which caused a great deal of trouble afterwards, and I am wondering whether the hon. Gentleman will say a word or two about this Sub-section.

3.24p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay)

I am not quite clear what the hon. Member means. Only the period of the student's war service which falls after the date when his course would have ended if he had not undertaken war service is treated as contributory service. I do not know that there are any special cases likely to arise out of that.

3.25p.m.

Mr. Tomlinson

May not the following position arise? A young man who has gone into college is called upon to undertake service. He has completed, say, 12 months of his course and he then has 12 months or two years to go, and as a result of his education having been interrupted, it may take him three years afterwards before he completes the course which will entitle him to become a teacher. It is within the power of the Board to determine from what date contributory service which is incorporated in Army service shall begin. Will there be taken into consideration the fact that it has taken such a person two years to complete his course rather than the 12 months which would have been the case had he gone straight forward, and will this be reckoned by the Board as being contributory service for the purposes of the Bill?

Mr. Lindsay

Certainly, it will be recognised as a qualifying period, but I would like to have notice of that question. I think each case will be treated on its merits, but I am not sure whether it will be recognised as contributory.

3.26p.m.

Mr. Cove

I recognise that it is impossible to discuss these technicalities across the Floor of the House, but will the hon. Gentleman give a promise that he will have a talk with some of us about this matter in order that we may be satisfied in our own minds?

Mr. Lindsay

By all means. I think the case raised is a very real case. There is a Clause which covers it as qualifying, but not as contributory.

Mr. Tomlinson

This Sub-section gives power to the Minister to determine. What we are asking is that, when the Bill is passed, the Minister shall determine to the advantage of the student.

Mr. Lees-Smith

May I ask whether it is intended to take the Report stage of the Bill to-day or to-morrow?

Mr. Lindsay

I think to-day.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSES 3 to 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 11 — (Interpretation.)

3.27 p.m.

Mr. Tomlinson

This Clause deals with the interpretation, and I want to refer to the position of the teacher who is not included under the interpretation and will need to be included if he is to come under the Bill. I refer to the unemployed teacher who has not been employed since he left college and who, therefore, has not entitled himself to be in the superannuation scheme. Probably he would be the first individual to be affected by the Measure we are now discussing. If he goes into the Services to-day and becomes a teacher after he is demobilised, he will not qualify for benefits under this Bill because of the fact that he has had no previous employment. There is a number of young men at the present time who have gone through their college training and qualified as teachers, but have not yet been in a post. All others are catered for in this Bill, but such men are not, and I think the Committee would desire that provision should be made for them.

3.28 p.m.

Mr. Cove

I wish briefly to support my hon. Friend the Member for Farn-worth (Mr. Tomlinson). I do not pretend to understand all the technical details of the Bill, but as far as I understand it, the unemployed teacher has not given contributory service, and therefore, if he renders war service, that service will not be counted for superannuation purposes. I should be obliged if the Parliamentary Secretary would say whether I am right in that interpretation, and, if so, whether something cannot be done to remove an injustice towards these teachers, who, although they have been through a period of training and have qualified, have been unfortunate enough not to get employment, particularly in some of the distressed areas.

3.29 p.m.

Mr. Lindsay

I think that possibly there are real cases of hardship with the unemployed teachers. It is true that there is a number of them at the present time. They have no employment and therefore, would not qualify for the contributory scheme, but their period will start from the day of war service as qualifying, and according to the Bill, some of them will pay 5 per cent. of the normal pay, plus the 2 per cent. which will be their portion of the employer's payment, they not having an employer previous to their being called up. Perhaps the hon. Member would consult with me about this. I would like to look into the matter closely to see whether it is possible to give him a more satisfactory reply, but the position under the Bill is as I have stated it.

Mr. Cove

Will there be any opportunity now for consultation or for dealing with the point?

Mr. Lees-Smith

If the Report stage of the Bill is to be taken to-day, there will be no opportunity of consulting my hon. Friends on this point. But is there any real necessity for taking the remaining stages of the Bill to-day? Under the present time table we know we have to meet on Thursday, and I suggest that the Report stage of the Bill might be taken to-morrow and that this point should be considered in the meantime.

3.31 p.m.

Mr. Hopkin

What is the position of a teacher who has just left the training college, having completed his two years training last July? That teacher if appointed to a post would probably have been due to start, let us say, some time in September. If in the meantime as a member of the Territorial Army, he has been called up, he will not be in a posi- tion to start work in the school. Is such a teacher covered by the Bill, and, if not, is it possible to include him?

Mr. Lindsay

I am afraid that there is no portion of this Bill which covers the unemployed teacher during the period after he leaves college but when he goes into war service, as far as I can see, he is eligible to count the period as qualifying for pension.

Mr. Cove

That is not satisfactory.

Mr. Lindsay

He himself would not be eligible to pay, and necessarily he is not covered by the contributory scheme.

Mr. Cove

I must say definitely that that is not satisfactory, and as this is a very important point I hope the hon. Gentleman will be able to find some way of meeting it.

3.34 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher

Yesterday I suggested inserting a time limit in these Bills, in order to give opportunity for adequate discussion later. In this case the Minister has made the rather unsatisfactory suggestion that hon. Members who are interested in the matter should talk it over with him. In view of the serious character of this omission from the Bill, would it not be more desirable, even if we pass the Bill now, to have a committee of those Members who are particularly interested in this subject to go into the whole matter further, with a view to bringing in new proposals to correct any weaknesses in the Bill as at present drafted?

Mr. Lees-Smith

It has just been made clear to me that there is not to be any Report stage. I, therefore, suggest that the hon. Gentleman should discuss this question with my hon. Friends and if it is clear that some Amendment is necessary, give an assurance that such an Amendment will be made in another place.

3.36 p.m.

Mr. Lindsay

I did say that I would consult with the hon. Members opposite. I realise that this point is not covered by the Bill and I am not sure whether it is a point which should be covered by this Bill, but I will inquire further and see whether any Amendment could be moved in another place. If not, I will under- take to go into this matter with the teachers' organisations and other persons concerned, because I think there is a real point involved.

Mr. Gallacher

Why not have a small committee of those Members who are interested in this question, to go into the matter with the Minister, even though we pass the Bill at this stage?

Mr. Lindsay

The answer is very simple. This is a technical point and it is a matter which can easily be settled if I consult those who are experts on this, in the teaching profession.

Mr. Cove

As far as the hon. Member's offer goes, I accept it, with the reservation that we may not be satisfied at the end.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSES 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment, read the Third time and passed.