§ 10.52 p.m.
§ Mr. ManderI beg to move "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill was read a First time a number of months ago and I cannot help thinking that it is very appropriate indeed, now that we are involved in war, that the special merits of this Measure should be considered. It really does the very thing the country desires. It applies to wealth the same measures as the Government are applying to the conscription of human beings. It lays down that in time of war, when there is general military conscription, the whole of the wealth of persons who are payers of Surtax over and above the Surtax level shall be placed at the disposal of the State, that is, the Treasury, for the purpose of carrying on the war as it may think fit, and wherever I have talked with people about this Measure I have always found they thought that to be an essentially sound and just way of dealing with the situation, because it would be treating men and money on exactly the same basis. The Measure does not actually impose taxation, because only a Motion by a Minister of the Crown can do that. It makes preparatory provisions. It calls upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to set up machinery for making a valuation of the property belonging to the persons I have indicated, and provides for the setting up of tribunals to deal with the case of Surtax payers who may have conscientious objection to their wealth being used for war purposes. If they can prove their case then their money is made available for hospitals and charitable objects of that kind. They cannot possibly escape. Having laid the main outlines of the Bill before the House, I ask that it may be allowed to pass the Second Reading, so that we may deal with this Measure in the same rapid manner in which so many other questions have been dealt with at the present time.
§ 10.54 P.m.
§ Mr. David GrenfellI beg formally to second the Motion.
§ 10.55 P.m.
§ Mr. Craven-EllisLike most Members in this House, I feel that people with private wealth should pay their contribu- 304 tion towards this country in these hard times, when men are sacrificing their lives, as they are in France and in other places; and if I could see that the country would benefit by the Measure that the hon. Member is moving I would support it. As I understand the Measure, there is to be a contribution to the Treasury by those who are subject to Surtax. I should like to know in what form that transfer to the Treasury from the individual of part of his wealth is to be made. That has not yet been disclosed. Is it to be in the form of scrip, or of deeds? As I understand the financial machinery of the Treasury, it would be possible for the transfer to be made to the Treasury and at the same time to preserve the soundness and stability of that financial machine.
I cannot conceive that there is any better way of contributing towards the country's requirements at this time than by direct and indirect taxation, because that revenue goes to the Treasury from the national income, as it is made year by year, and without in any way threatening or interfering with the national wealth. The proposer of the Measure appears to pay little regard to the effect on the national wealth of providing for a transfer of a certain percentage. With Income Tax at 7s. 6d. in the £ we can fairly say that that represents a contribution of wealth. We do not know now that"s. 6d. is to be—
§ Mr. Mander rose in his place and claimed to move," That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent and declined then to put that Question.
§ Mr. Craven-Ellis—the limit. It might be as high as 10s. 6d. in the £.The proposer of this Bill has not given the matter fair, proper and reasonable consideration. The proposer, whom we know to be a man of considerable wealth —and I should very much have liked, if there had been time—
§ Mr. Mander rose in his place and claimed to move," That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent and declined then to put that Question.
§ Mr. Craven-Ellis—to know exactly how he proposes that the Bill should be operated. I presume that his wealth, like 305 other wealth, is represented in stocks and shares. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."] At this time he would have very considerable difficulty in realising his stock? and shares in order to enable him to make his contribution, and if he was doing it it—
§ Mr. Marnier rose in his place and claimed to move," That the Question be now put." But Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
§ Mr. Craven-Ellis—as others were doing it, realising their securities for the purpose of this transfer, there would be a certain amount of deflation—
§ It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
§ Debate to be resumed To-morrow.
§ The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.