HC Deb 15 November 1939 vol 353 cc769-73

5.48 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Major Lloyd George)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 7, after "who," to insert: on or after such day as may be fixed by order of the Board of Trade. It is obvious that some time must elapse between the passing of the Bill and the consideration of these different cases by the Advisory Committee and the Board of Trade, as provided for in Clause 3. In the absence of this Amendment, various mutual societies would be debarred from circularising their members or advertising during that period. Although this might be desirable in some cases, the principle underlying the Bill is control rather than prohibition, and bona fide concerns might be adversely affected if such a provision as this were not inserted.

Mr. A. V. Alexander

I am not very well satisfied with this Amendment, or the reasons which have been given for its adoption. I could understand some allowance of time being made in connection with the operation of penalties under this Measure, in respect of those organisations which are so confident of their case that they will submit their proposals for circularising, to the Board of Trade and the Advisory Committee. But to say that, over the whole range of publicity, those operations are to be allowed to continue in respect of concerns which are hardly of the kind which the President of the Board of Trade himself would want to support, and that the Bill is to be indefinitely postponed in relation to such cases is quite another matter. If the right hon. Gentleman were to bring in an Amendment saying that he would, by order, fix a date on which the Measure would operate in the case of applications which had been turned down by the Advisory Committee, that would be different. But surely publicity in regard to schemes which are felt in the minds of the promoters themselves not to be sufficiently sound to be submitted for the approval of the Advisory Committee and the Board of Trade, should cease right away from the appointed day. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary was anxious to save the time of the Committee but he was not very detailed in his statement, and I would be better satisfied if some reservation were attached to this proposal confining it to those applications which are of such a character that they can, with confidence, be submitted to the Advisory Committee.

Sir Joseph Lamb

I have an Amendment later on the Paper, and I wish to know the effect which this Amendment, if carried, would have upon mine. This Amendment states: after such day as may be fixed by Order of the Board of Trade. There is a danger that in trying to catch wrong-doers we may cause hardships to those who are operating legitimately. The period of time between the passing of this Measure and the grant of permission by the Minister may be considerable. In the first place, the Minister has to set up an Advisory Committee. I do not know whether he has in mind the names of those who will be asked to serve upon it, but it may take some time to find suitable people. In addition, there will have to be time for these legitimate associations to make their applications, to have those applications considered and to get a decision. The words "such day as may be fixed" may not give a period long enough and considerable hardship may be caused to those who are making legitimate application because permission would not be given until after a certain lapse of time, and in the interregnum between the coming into the operation of the Measure and the granting of permission, they could not carry on their legitimate operations.

5.52 p.m.

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley)

I am puzzled by the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb), because I am not sure whether he is for, or against, the Amendment.

Sir J. Lamb

I want to know its effect.

Mr. Stanley

It is designed to meet the very point which he is raising, and which was also mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander). If the Act comes into operation directly after the Royal Assent, a bona fide company may be prepared with its application and may present its application straight away, but the machinery will not be there to deal with it. The Advisory Committee will not be working and there will be delay before the application can be heard, and consequently there will be an interruption in that company's business due to no fault of their own. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite to remember that the circularising, which is forbidden by this Measure, goes a good deal further than mere advertisements in newspapers. This might be held to apply to the ordinary communications which would have to be sent out by a company to its members, in regard to the payment of premiums or the like, and it seems hard that an interregnum in business should be brought about, not necessarily through any default on the part of the prospective applicant but simply because the machinery was not ready. Therefore we are asking power to fix a date, so that we can have the machinery ready before the Act comes into operation, and so that we may know that the bona fide applicant will be able to get his permission, co-terminous with the coming into force of the Measure, and that there will be no hiatus in his business caused by inability on our part to deal with his application. Already, we have the preparations as far advanced as possible, and I anticipate that the intervening period will be as short as is consonant with the possibility of dealing with the applications swiftly.

Sir J. Lamb

I am sorry if I did not make myself clear, but I would ask for a definite assurance, in view of the fact that I do not wish to move a subsequent Amendment, that "such day" will mean a time adequate for these societies to obtain the permission.

Mr. Stanley

That is exactly what I have said.

Mr. Alexander

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation and I do not want to interfere with reasonable time being given to that' type of company which is putting forward to the Advisory Committee proposals which are reasonable from their point of view. But there may be other concerns actually in operation which are not of that character and whose operations ought to cease forthwith.

Mr. Stanley

The right hon. Gentleman will see that it will be quite impossible, until we have a chance of considering the applications, to distinguish between the two classes of applications. Therefore what we must aim at is to give the shortest time necessary for these applications to be considered and for us to be able to say which are bona fide and which are not.

Mr. Alexander

May we have an assurance, not in specific but in general terms, that the right hon. Gentleman will aim at a date as near as possible to 1st January?

Mr. Stanley

I have not gone into the question closely but I was hoping that we would have the machinery working before that.

Sir J. Lamb

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, for which I thank him, I do not propose to move the subsequent Amendment in my name.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 2, line 14, after "one," insert "or Section two."

In line 16, at the end, add: or (c) anything done with a view to inducing persons to enter into any contract of insurance—

  1. (i) of goods consigned for carriage by sea or by air from a place outside the United Kingdom to a place in the United Kingdom, while the goods are in transit between the ship or aircraft and their destination; or
  2. (ii) of goods consigned for carriage by sea or by air from a place in the United Kingdom to a place outside the United Kingdom, while the goods are in transit between the premises from which they are consigned and the ship or aircraft."—[Major Lloyd George.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.