HC Deb 23 May 1939 vol 347 cc2252-7

11.17 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I beg to move, in page 30, line 10, after the first "premises," to insert "in any mine."

This and the following Amendment are purely drafting in character.

Mr. W. Joseph Stewart

As the Lord Privy Seal has already said, in the event of the outbreak of war, it will be necessary to dim lights as far as possible. There is the question of burning pit heaps in the country, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that it will be impossible, in a time of emergency, to dim these burning heaps after due warning has been given of an air raid. Is the right hon. Gentleman taking the necessary precautions now, in conjunction with the various colliery companies concerned, with a view to having these pit heaps treated so that there will not be any glare in the event of war breaking out.

Sir J. Anderson rose—

Mr. G. Macdonald

On a point of Order. Are we discussing the Motion that the Clause stand part of the Bill?

The Chairman

No, we are not. We are discussing the Amendment at the bottom of page 1286 on the Order Paper. I would say to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. W. J. Stewart) that I am afraid that his point hardly arises here. I am quite willing for the Minister to give an answer, if he wishes to do so, but I must guard myself against allowing a discussion.

11.19 p.m.

Sir J. Anderson

I was only going to explain that Clause 35 deals with an entirely different subject-matter from that dealt with in Clause 34. I am afraid that to deal with the point that has been raised would be out of order, but perhaps I might be allowed to say that it is the intention of my Department, in conjunction with the Department of Mines, to tackle the particular case of the burning pit heaps and see what can be done to ensure that beforehand and before any emergency occurs they are, as far as possible, put into a condition in which they will not be a menace.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 30, line 14, after "premises," insert "or a mine."—(Sir J. Anderson.)

11.20 p.m.

Mr. Fleming

I beg to move, in page 30, line 16, after "undertakers," to insert: after consultation with such persons or bodies as the Minister considers representative of the industry concerned. As my right hon. Friend point out, this Clause deals with matters of flames or glare, and the Amendment, if accepted, merely asks that people in the industry should also be consulted as well as certain professional men as to the best method of preventing glare or flame. I put down the Amendment in order to obtain a statement on this point.

Mr. H. Morrison

I cannot see how the Amendment will work, because it looks as though the industry as a whole would have to be consulted before every individual application was settled. I hope that the point will be taken into consideration.

11.21 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, and I ask my hon. and learned Friend not to press the Amendment, because it might have the effect to which the right hon. Gentleman has drawn attention. I hope he will be satisfied with the assurance that this is a technical problem which can only be solved after consultation with all interests concerned.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Further Amendments made:

In page 30, line 16, at end, insert "the owner of the mine."

In line 19, after "take," insert "or complete."

In line 28, after "take," insert "or complete."—(Mr. W. S. Morrison.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

11.23 p.m.

Mr. G. Macdonald

We have been talking about dealing with burning pit-heaps for many months, and the Minister has already indicated that some action is to be taken. I want to put a question to the Lord Privy Seal as to the amount of notice he intends to give colliery owners to deal with them. I hope he realises the importance of giving long notice. I think he is bound to give notice before war has commenced, otherwise war will be well on the way before anything can be done to extinguish these burning pit-heaps. It will be necessary to take early action on this matter.

11.24 p.m.

Mr. Tinker

I also want to call the particular attention of the Lord Privy Seal to this matter. I think that immediate consultations should take place so that owners may be told what will be expected of them as soon as the Bill becomes law. It is essential in the interests of the country that they should take immediate measures to deal with this grave danger. Every time we go to a colliery district we see these burning pit-heaps and we can realise what will take place should war break out, and we ask ourselves whether it is right to allow them to continue without taking steps to deal with them. I trust that the Minister will not wait until the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, but will tell them beforehand what we hope they will do in the interests of the country and of themselves.

11.26 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher

I am very much concerned about a few remarks that were made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. He said, with reference to some remarks made on the Amendment, that consultation will take place with the mineowners and employers generally. That is very dangerous. I am very deeply concerned about this question—

The Chairman

The hon. Member is apparently discussing the Amendment.

Mr. Gallacher

I am discussing the Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," and in my objections to the Clause standing part, I have to take into account some remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman.

The Chairman

I must warn the hon. Member that he must not discuss over again an Amendment which has been dealt with and passed.

Mr. Gallacher

I am sorry if I transgressed in any way, but I did not mention the Amendment, and I am not con- cerned about it. I am concerned about certain remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman which gave me the impression that he and the Lord Privy Seal contemplate, in connection with this Clause, having discussions with the mineowners prior to an intimation being given to the mineowners that they must put an end to this glare that is such a danger to the country. I want the Lord Privy Seal to make absolutely certain that, before there are any discussions of any kind, notice shall be sent stating that within a given time the glare must be ended. In my constituency, there is a glare that is a very serious menace to the whole area. As I have said before, it is in the neighbourhood of the Forth Bridge, which is bound to be one of the first centres of attraction to enemy aircraft from across the North Sea. The glare from that particular pit lights up the whole area of the Forth Bridge, and in North Queensferry the people are faced with the danger that arises from living near the Forth Bridge, a short distance from this glare.

Lieut.-Colonel the Marquess of Titch-field

Can the hon. Member tell me how he would put out the fire at that bing? I do not think anybody knows how to do it.

Mr. Gallacher

If the Minister is in any difficulties as to how to get rid of the glare, I shall be very pleased to give him advice on that matter. He should put on the employers the responsibility of getting the necessary unemployed men to get on with the job right away, and remove the red bing. There is any number of unemployed men who could be used, at trade union rates of wages, for important national work of that kind. There should be an immediate notification to the employers to get rid of the glare, and there should be no discussions with them beforehand. It is one of the most essential national responsibilities to see that in these areas glare is eliminated without loss of time. Once the employers have been given notice that the glare has to be removed within a given period, the Minister can have any discussions he likes for the purpose of assisting them in that task, but there should be no discussions until notice has been given.

11.30 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

The hon. Gentleman will realise that this Clause refers to all kinds of glares, and my right hon. Friend is in consultation with all those concerned in relation to this very difficult problem. I hope the hon. Gentleman will not consider that consultation is necessarily merely a method of slowing up or retarding progress. There are many technical questions to be considered on which the advice of those concerned will be invaluable, in any sincere attempt to deal with the problem.

Mr. H. Morrison

I assume that, so far as there is a general undertaking as to consultation with persons or bodies deemed by the Minister to be representative of the industries concerned, in all appropriate cases the trade union organisations will be regarded as included?

Mr. W. S. Morrison

Certainly.

11.32 p.m.

Mr. David Adams

The Lord Privy Seal will notice that Sub-section (2) states that the Minister "may serve on the owner of any mine," etc. I recognise that the Lord Privy Seal is probably the most energetic Member of one of the most energetic Ministries of modern times, and I ask him whether he is satisfied that the word "may" in this connection is sufficiently strong? Would he not prefer Parliament to state that this should be an obligation on the Minister, by using the word "shall," instead of leaving it optional and incurring the risk that the Minister, if he were on a holiday for instance, might overlook the matter. I submit that it should be obligatory on the Minister to give instructions to mine-owners forthwith.