CLAUSE 24.—(Power to make regulations as to construction, alteration or extension of buildings.) (Hansard, 23 May 1939)

§ Mr. Ede
I beg to move, in page 20, line 16, after "fit," to insert: and also with such associations of local authorities as appear to him to be concerned.

§ Sir J. Anderson
I think it would be better not to include in the Statute itself a catalogue of the associations to be consulted in regard to the various matters dealt with in the Bill. This is not the only case in point. There are, for example, various matters arising under Clause 56 where it is most certainly the intention and the desire of the Department to consult with all those representative bodies which are interested. I gladly give the assurance, without any specific words in the Clause, that such consultation shall take place.

§ Mr. Ross Taylor
I beg to move, in page 20, line 25, at the end, to insert: Provided that any building used, or required for use, for the purposes of their undertaking by public utility undertakers who carry on a water, gas, or electricity undertaking shall not be included in any class of buildings so specified. May I first mention the Amendment to my Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. A. Herbert). This Amendment and the Amendment to it have been put down in the hope that, even if the Lord Privy Seal cannot accept 2246 them, he may be able to give an assurance that the Clause will not normally apply to the buildings of public utility undertakings. The Clause relates chiefly to dwelling-houses and shelters as such, but it might also apply to the buildings of public utility undertakings, which are of a specialised nature, like retort houses, power houses and so on. It is felt to be undesirable that the local authority, which ordinarily has no jurisdiction in regard to these buildings, should be given jurisdicton under the Clause, but that the appropriate authority under which they have to work would be the proper authority to exercise this jurisdiction. I notice that the Clause makes provision for relaxation or non-applicatiion of the regulations in certain cases, and possibly my right hon. Friend may be able to give an assurance that these powers will be exercised and that normally the regulations will not apply to technical buildings owned by public utility companies.

§ Mr. W. S. Morrison
I can give an assurance that the Clause will be worked by my right hon. Friend with every consideration for the particular problems of these undertakings, and after making full use of the power of consultation with the appropriate persons. I could not, however, go as far as my hon. Friend desires. In view of the general purpose of the Clause, which is to prevent the construction of new buildings or extensions of existing buildings which would, to use a picturesque but common phrase, perhaps be death-traps at the time of an air raid, there is no strong case for excluding, say, the headquarters of an electricity company from the same obligations which apply to other buildings. There are men employed in the one as in the other, and the necessity for this power is as strong in the one as in the other. Circumstances may vary from time to time, but there will be ample consultation, and every effort will be made to make the Clause work without friction.

§ Mr. Ross Taylor
In view of my right hon. Friend's explanation, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Foot
I rise to ask whether the Minister can give any undertaking as to these Regulations being laid before the House. The Committee may have observed that I put down two Amendments designed to ensure that the Regulations should be laid before the House in draft, and that the approval of both Houses should be necessary before the Regulations came into force. I think that that would be the better arrangement, because these Regulations will be of considerable importance. Sub-section (1) says that the Minister may make Regulations with regard to: (b) such requirements as he considers necessary as to the provision of air-raid shelter for the persons using or resorting to the buildings. That is a matter which affects large numbers of people. Also, of course, the powers taken under this Clause in relation to buildings are very considerable, and it seems to me that the best method would be for the consent of the two Houses to be made necessary, but if the Minister cannot see his way to grant that, I think the regulations ought to be laid in the normal way.

§ Sir J. Anderson
Most certainly I agree that the regulations under this Clause and the regulations under a number of other Clauses of the Bill should be laid before Parliament, and an Amendment has been put down so to provide, but it comes at a much later stage of the Bill. I ought to say straight away that I do not consider that the case of regulations under this Clause 24 is a suitable case for the affirmative Resolution procedure. These regulations will be of a very technical character, and they are not to be made until there has been consultation with various professional bodies. We propose that the regulations will be published in draft, so that there may be an opportunity for anyone concerned to call attention to any special feature or to any supposed defect. The proposal of the Government is that the regulations should be subject to annulment in the usual way if within a certified time objection is taken.

§ Mr. Fleming
In view of the fact that I also have an Amendment down on this matter, I would like to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman intends that publication in draft shall be under the Rules Publication Act, 1893, or under some special form?

§ Sir J. Anderson
That matter is provided for in the Rules Publication Act itself. The Amendment proposed in this Bill will merely provide that regulations shall be laid before Parliament. These regulations under Clause 24 will be published in draft.

§ Mr. Foot
I take it that when the right hon. Gentleman refers to the later Amendment, he is referring to the Amendment on Clause 71, in which it is provided in Sub-section (4): Section one of the Rules Publication Act, 1893, shall not apply to any Order in Council, order, or scheme made under this Act.

§ The Chairman
I think we had better not discuss that until we reach that point.

§ Sir J. Anderson
I was careful in my reply to say that as regards regulations under this Clause, the effect of the Government Amendment which has been put down will be that the regulations will be published in draft.