RESERVE OF AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY. (Hansard, 17 May 1939)

§ The Minister of Agriculture (Colonel Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith)
This Estimate covers a very important item in the Government's plans for increased food production in time of war. As I explained to the House on 3rd May, under our general plans for increased food production expansion would necessitate a ploughing-up campaign. I explained some of the plans to organise and control the utilisation of tractors and agricultural machinery. They provide for the increased use of existing tractors now on the farms in the arable areas, of which there are ample supplies, also that the Government should, in the event of an outbreak of war, purchase tractors and organise their use in places where there is an insufficiency of tractor plant. These plans are designed to establish machinery which shall be instantly available on the outbreak of an emergency. None of these tractors will be made available for those farmers who qualify for the £2 an acre grant which I announced recently. This reserve is to be established purely for use in the event of war.
There are three main features of these plans, namely, acquisition, storage and, in the event of there being no war, liquidation of this reserve. As far as the last-named feature is concerned, it is clear that if we buy a tremendous number of tractors and keep them in store for a long period they will depreciate, however well they are looked after, because there will be changes of design and so on which will probably put them out-of-date. To guard against the danger of depreciation we are trying to arrange with the contractors that purchases by the Government shall be held by dealers as part of their trade stocks, but as an additional part of those stocks. The Government stocks will be turned over in the ordinary course of business, and thus there will be no depreciation. The dealers will be carrying abnormally large trade stocks throughout. 1573 although the additional stocks will belong to the Government. They will be all kept up-to-date. It is an essential part of the scheme that the stocks held on behalf of the Government will be in addition to normal stocks. The Government will compensate dealers, first, for placing additional storage accommodation at our disposal, and, secondly, for incidental expenses in keeping the machines in perfect order. These stocks, we hope, will be carried without any embarrassment to the dealers or without any depressing effect on the market.
In the event of war, the Government will take possession of the stocks at once. On the other hand, if we have to liquidate those reserves, arrangements will be made for the stocks to be worked off gradually, so that they may be sold at current list prices through the trade in the ordinary way. Thus any inconvenience to trade may be overcome or reduced to a minimum. The House will not expect me to disclose the actual number of tractors which we propose to purchase. It would not be in the public interest to give any precise information as to the number to be stored for defence purposes. But I would like to say that the greater part of the sum included in the Estimate will be expended not on tractors but on various parts of machinery which are drawn by tractor, and, as far as possible, this expenditure will be confined mainly to tractors and machinery of home production. Unlike most of our expenditure on defensive preparations, we shall, in making this provision, get most of our money back.

Mr. Alexander
The right hon. Gentleman says that the tractors and machinery will be mostly home products. Do I understand that the Government are going to make one contract for the whole of the machinery, or will they leave it to dealers to buy on their behalf?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
The main contract will be with the one firm—Ford—providing the greater amount of tractors. We shall be able to get our money back—

§ Lieut.-Colonel Heneage
Is the right hon. Gentleman arranging for inspection of the Government-owned tractors, if the turn-over is carried out, to see that they are in good order?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
There will be an inspection of those actually in stock.

§ Mr. Turton
Will it be tractors or machinery?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
For the purposes of this Estimate it will be tractors or machinery.

§ Sir Edmund Findlay
Inevitably when Scottish Members ask questions of the Minister of Agriculture they are referred to the Secretary of State for Scotland. We have heard from the Minister of Agriculture a very interesting statement. We know nothing of what the Scottish Members think about that. There is no Scottish Minister on the Front Bench and I do not see how we can possibly agree with the right hon. Gentleman's statement unless we know what the Scottish Members of the Front Bench think about it.

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
I am in the closest possible consultation with the Secretary of State for Scotland.

§ Sir E. Findlay
Not so close as that, because there is no Scottish Minister next to the right hon. Gentleman.

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
Not next to me. Naturally this is a United Kingdom project, and therefore Scottish interests are fully safeguarded.

§ Major Owen
Will this Estimate cover the whole of England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
Not Northern Ireland, but England and Wales and Scotland.

§ Major Owen
According to the way in which the Estimate is placed on the Paper, one would gather it referred only to England and Wales, as it is a matter for the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, and matters for Scotland are dealt with by the Secretary of State of Scotland.

§ Sir E. Findlay
Where is he?

§ Major Owen
It is a very moderate and modest Estimate that we are asked to deal with to-night. We have in England and Wales alone 25,000,000 acres of cultivable land, and we have here, as a result of this proposal, which amounts to a shilling an acre, help for agriculture in a time of emergency. I 1575 think this is a very moderate Estimate and a very inadequate Estimate to deal with a position that is bound to arise if war does come. I would like to point out that, whereas in 1917 the Government of the day found it necessary to acquire close on 10,000 tractors in order to bring the land into cultivation, on this Estimate, taking the figure at £500 for a good tractor, that it will provide about 2,500 tractors—a negligible amount to deal with an emergency. You cannot really get a good tractor under £500. I wish finally to call attention to one statement of the Minister, and that is that the tractors are going to be purchased in this country, and that therefore the question of tariffs does not arise.

§ Mr. Price
I want to ask the Minister how he is going to get over the difficulty of keeping these machines up-to-date and how he is going to deal with the question of the deterioration of the stock. Anyone who keeps tractors knows that if they are kept without being operated in the winter they are going to deteriorate. Is he going to have the parts made and installed so that they can be assembled in the event of an emergency or are they going to be assembled before the emergency and kept by the dealers in store? I was not clear how he was going to deal with this question. I am not so apprehensive regarding the figures as the speaker who preceded me, because big tractors will be wanted only in the grass counties in the West of England and the Midlands and we shall want the smaller tractors for the smaller fields. I do not think the figures will be as small as the hon. Member seems to think. If the Minister can make the point clear as regards assembly and of care being taken in regard to the deterioration of stock, I think he will satisfy the Committee.

§ Mr. Quibell
I think the Minister has met the point that was exercising my mind in respect of this particular Vote. I cannot understand for the life of me why the Minister expects that these tractors will be needed only in the case of what he calls an emergency. I understood the whole policy involved not only in this Vote but in the speech which the Minister of Agriculture mentioned on a previous occasion was to encourage the further ploughing up of agricultural land 1576 and the extension of the agricultural policy that he had announced.

§ The Chairman
I think the hon. Member is referring to another part of the programme, one which does not come into this particular Estimate. This Estimate is purely for the machinery which is to be kept in the event of an emergency.

§ Mr. Quibell
I consider that so far as this proposal is concerned, in view of what is being done, it is most ridiculous, inasmuch as at the present time the tractors we have in this country cannot now be fully used. So far as this policy is concerned, if the Government should adopt what some of us consider the proper policy, these tractors would be more fully used by the agricultural community in providing the food required in an emergency. This land should be ploughed up now. Anyone with experience knows that grassland should be ploughed up at the end of the year, it should be laid down and mellowed by the frost and then the crop should be planted. That is required now more than anything else to get the land into condition so as to be able to provide food for the emergency, should it arise.

§ The Chairman
The hon. Member up to a point is quite relevant. He is suggesting an alternative course, but whether that alternative is one which ought to be considered or not does not arise in this Debate, and we must not discuss it on this occasion.

§ Mr. Quibell
I do not want to defy your Ruling, so I will express my opinion that this money can be better spent now in extending ploughing.

§ Mr. Tinker
I would like to ask a question about this Estimate. May I take it that it is in anticipation of the Bill and that nothing can be bought until the Bill passes the House. Is that the position? I take it that these orders will be distributed all over the country.

An hon. Member
The Minister said Fords.

§ Mr. Tinker
I would like to ask why Fords are getting the order. I have in my constituency a firm which provides these things. Will there be any chance for them to compete? I think they ought to have a chance like the other firm.

§ Mr. W. Roberts
May I ask for a little explanation from the Minister? He said that these tractors would be available and that they would be in the hands of dealers and that they are in some way to be disposed of so that they can be renewed from Government stock. Will they be disposed of by the dealers at the normal price in order that, as the Minister explained, they should not become obsolete or out of date? If they are to be sold by the dealers I presume they will be sold at the ordinary price, but I do not quite understand how in fact there can be this additional supply of tractors and where they will be sold. If they are sold, then it clearly means that the ordinary sales by the dealer will not take place. Either the Government's tractors will be sold or the ordinary tractors will be, and if the Government's are sold, the ordinary dealer's will not be. I may have misunderstood the Minister, but I cannot see how the outline of his scheme can keep these tractors up to date unless they are sold.
I was very sorry to hear him say that this machinery would not be available for this summer's ploughing. I am confident that if the announcement of £2 per acre in respect of grassland has not come too late—[HON. MEMBERS: "It is too little."]—it may be too little also—but if it has not come too late and if we are to get the estimated quarter of a million acres ploughed up, this additional machinery would be very greatly needed. I suppose that if we survive this summer without a war there will be a policy of ploughing out next winter and I would like to ask the Minister if even next winter these tractors and machinery will be available for the ploughing out of grassland, or whether in fact they are to be permanently stored and only to be used when war breaks out? If the latter is proposed, it seems a very unfortunate arrangement.

§ The Chairman
I think the hon. Gentleman is quite entitled to ask about the use to which the tractors will be put but not to go into questions of policy under some scheme which is outside this reserve purchase.

§ Mr. Roberts
Without developing the point further I may say I think the mere storage of tractors will not meet the need of providing food in this country.

§ The Chairman
It was at that stage that I stopped the argument of a previous speaker.

Mr. Alexander
Once more we find ourselves in the difficulty of having to conform to the Rules of Procedure in dealing with a Supplementary Estimate and of having to vote money which will enable the Minister to go right ahead without having any discussion of details. That really is a very difficult position to put hon. Members of this House into, and with great respect for your Ruling, Sir Dennis, I think perhaps you may help us to get over that difficulty if we could have a reasonably wide interpretation of the Note to the Estimate itself, that is, the desirability of establishing a reserve of tractors and other machinery that would be necessary for an increased area under arable cultivation. On that I submit to you, Sir Dennis, that the Government have already practically declared that there is an emergency by bringing in, under a separate Measure, a scheme for subsidising a special ploughing up of grassland.

§ The Chairman
That is the exact point which I ruled that we could not debate on this Estimate. It is another policy and another scheme and it is not one for which any money is provided in this Estimate.

Mr. Alexander
The point I was making and which I want to put at this stage is this, that when the Government, in respect of that other policy, have recognised that an emergency has begun and that therefore they must ask for a subsidy for ploughing up, that, in fact, means that the other scheme would be inadequate to meet the emergency unless what is now proposed as a reserve shall be proceded with at once. That is really a matter that we want to discuss upon this Supplementary Estimate. We certainly do not wish to be out of order, and whilst we do not want in any way to go back on the discussion of a scheme already provided for in another Vote of the House, we do want to say that this scheme is inadequate to meet the emergency against which the reserve is to be provided, unless it can be regarded as an emergency now and put into operation. That is really the point I want to put.

§ The Chairman
The right hon. Gentleman puts that point by asking how far he can go and how he would be out of order. He has referred once or twice to that other scheme, and it is discussion of that other scheme that I cannot allow. Hon. Members may say a thing is important, but its importance—however important—does not by any means necessarily make it relevant to this Estimate.

Mr. Alexander
It seems to us that the purpose of the Government may well be met by obtaining this money even by this irregular proceeding in anticipation of legislation, and instead of just putting the tractors away when they have got them, by actually using them. There would still be a reserve to the present strength of tractors in the country because they would be additional apparatus under Government control. The Government should actually use them by hiring them out to the people who are being requested to plough additional land because of the danger of an emergency arising.

§ The Chairman
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will recall the point at which I stopped hon. Members on the last Vote, and I must do the same thing here. We cannot go into details of what is to be done and the way in which this machinery may be used after it has been acquired. All we can deal with is the purpose for which it is required.

Mr. Alexander
Then I must complain about the incompetence of the Government in the procedure they have adopted. Surely they should be able to study the rules of the House sufficiently and enable the Committee to offer suggestions for dealing with this scheme without hon. Members always being out of order? It is not the responsibility of the Chair; the Chair has to follow the rules of the House, and it surely does show that the Government have not adopted the right procedure? In the interests of the country, if we are voting this large sum of money we ought to be certain that we are getting the best results from it. The real reason for voting this money is in anticipation of an emergency. That puts us in a very difficult position. I cannot proceed to discuss whether we should hire this machinery out or not, but I do hope that when we come to discuss the Bill we Shall be in a position to find out whether the Government has committed itself finally on that question.
1580 I rather gathered from the answer that the Minister gave to an interjection that the contract is cut and dried and all is settled. There is one firm which alone apparently is regarded as being able to fill the bill and they will supply these tractors. If so, I think we ought to know a little more as to what is going to constitute the reserve. I noticed a hesitancy on the part of the Minister to give the Committee information on that point. He was hiding behind the sort of argument that it would be impossible in the best interests of the country to give such information. After all, we have been debating for three or four years in great detail various Defence Estimates, and when we have been debating the provision we are going to make for battleships, aeroplanes and munitions, we have had information. We have had the actual number of men who have been enlisted voluntarily and of those who are to be taken compulsorily, all set out in great detail for any enemy. All we want to know is how many tractors there are to be available for growing wheat and so on. When we ask for that, it is said that it would be most dangerous information to make available to an enemy. That does seem to me to be extraordinary.
The Committee ought to be satisfied as to whether we are spending this money economically, and I think we have a right to know from the Minister how many tractors he is going to provide by the expenditure under this Estimate. It will enable us to make some estimate as to whether tractors are going to be in sufficient reserves for the emergency. I am sorry the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) had to go because the means of transport would have gone if he had not gone—but in general may I say on behalf of the Opposition that so far as we are concerned we do not want to treat this proposal in a cavalier manner or in an obstructive spirit. We want to see what can be done to assist, but we shall require to look with very great care at the details of the proposal, not because we do not want something done but because we want it done now and in the most efficient way to improve the actual food reserves of the country in time of an emergency.

§ Major Owen
May I put one more question? Will the single order be for tractors only?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
Yes, for tractors only. I entirely appreciate the position as regards procedure. I can only repeat that these are hard times and perhaps it is as well that we should adapt ourselves to the machinery if we can. As to the reserve of tractors we are going to maintain, although it is necessary in some cases to debate actual numbers the more you can keep that figure away from any potential enemy the better. It is of interest and importance to us in our economic information to find out what reserves of tractors other countries have. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to realise the difference between offering an inducement of £2 an acre to a farmer who can utilise it and make the best use of it, and having the power one would have in war-time to compel people to plough up whether they wanted to do so or not. There is a difference between putting agriculture on a war-time footing in peace-time and trying to get the best out of a peace-time structure. There is a great difference between the present situation as regards tractors and that at the beginning of the last War. We had few tractors at that time and now we have a great number, but the difficulty has been that they have not been sited in those districts where we may want to concentrate them on ploughing up. I want to overcome that particular deficiency.

Mr. Alexander
Now?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
I want to get them in the right position so that if war breaks out we may be able to use them instantly and without delay.

Mr. Alexander
The whole point is that representations have been made to the right hon. Gentleman's Department by people who are trying to organise the reserves of productive capacity of the country. They should be able to plough up now, but there are not the implements for ploughing up.

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
I appreciate that, but I do think that is a different matter. If when the Bill came before the House the Government were required by amendment to start lending out tractors in peace time, that would be a different matter from the war reserves we are trying to get so that they shall not deteriorate. The ordinary dealer who normally had one tractor in store will have two or more in store for the Gov- 1582 ernment. When he has sold his normal one, one of the Government tractors will be taken and another will come from the factory to take the place of the one which has gone out. Therefore, the dealer will have the two Government tractors in store and the one he is selling himself.

§ Mr. Price
How much will be paid for storage, and will they be assembled?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
They will be assembled and the dealers will be doing certain duties to keep them in proper condition. They will be turned over—the engine and so on—to keep them in good condition. The dealer will be paid for that service at the lowest possible rate.

§ Major Owen
Will they be under the control of the dealers, or will the Ministry look after them to see they are properly kept and in working order?

§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
There will be an inspector of the Ministry who will go round. Also, it will be very much in the interests of the company or dealer to see that they are kept in really good condition. As to the question of the order, it is difficult in a bulk order like this, when you want them as quickly as possible, to find firms that can turn them out quickly enough. If, in fact, the firm in question is able to do that, so much the better. I hope the Committee will now give me the Estimate.