CLAUSE 8.—(Power to raise Royal Naval Special Reserve.) (Hansard, 15 May 1939)

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Shakespeare)
I beg to move, in page 14, line 40, after "shall," to insert: notwithstanding anything in the proviso to Section three of the said Act. I will deal with this Amendment and the three following Amendments together. It will be convenient, probably, if I briefly state first the purpose of Clause 8. The Committee will remember that Clause 2 (3) of the Bill exempts persons from liability to be registered in the military training register, or to be called up for military training, if, on or after 27th April, they have been entered in the naval reserve force to be raised under the provisions of this Measure. In that Sub-section, it was stated that their service must be for four years and that they must be liable to a period of six months continuous training. Clause 8 empowers the Admiralty to raise such a force to be called the Royal Naval Special Reserve and Sub-section (2) applies the Royal Naval Reserve Volunteer Act of 1859—the main Act governing all these reserves—to this new reserve. Paragraph (a) modifies that old Act to the extent of providing that these Royal Naval Special Reservists shall do four years service, instead of five years service, as under the old Act, and that they shall do six months continuous training in one year instead of the maximum training allowed under the old Act as subsequently amended, which was 92 days. So much for the intention expressed in Clause 2 to form a Royal Naval Special Reserve, the conditions of which shall be four years service of which six months shall be continuous.
Sub-section (2, b) of Clause 8, as drafted, puts the liability for the six months continuous training into the first year of service but on reconsideration this was thought to be inconvenient. It was considered better to lay it down that the six months continuous training might be done at any time within the four years 1089 service. The first three Amendments make that plain and I will read to the Committee paragraph (b) as it will appear if these three Amendments are made in it: A royal naval special reservist shall, notwithstanding anything in the proviso to Section three of the said Act, be liable to undergo a course of continuous training for a period of six months. The fourth Amendment refers to paragraph (c). The paragraph as it appears in the Bill provides that a Royal Naval Special Reservist may be entered for marine service and when called up for actual service or training, shall be subject to the discipline of the Royal Marine force. The Amendment is for the purpose of making sure that when a person joins the Royal Naval Special Reserve for marine service, his pay when called up for service shall be the appropriate pay of his rank in the Royal Marines and not the pay of a naval rating.

§ The Chairman
I approve of what the hon. Gentleman said with regard to the first three of these Amendments, but I think the fourth Amendment is different and that we ought to deal with it separately.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
If that is your wish, Sir Dennis, and the wish of the Committee I confine myself to the first three Amendments. But as this is, I think, the first time that a spokesman for the Admiralty has referred to the formation of this Royal Naval Special Reserve, perhaps the Committee would appreciate a short statement from me as to the purpose in the mind of the Admiralty. We believe that there is a class in the community which will look primarily to the Admiralty to provide a form of naval training in lieu of the military training to which, otherwise, men of 20 would be liable. Those categories might be broadly termed categories within the seafaring sections of the community, such as men in the merchant service on reaching the age of 20, and also those engaged in the fishing industry. Further there are various organisations which in fact or in sentiment are associated with the Navy and would expect a form of naval training rather than military training. These, speaking generally, are men of 20 in the Royal Naval Reserve or in the other reserves such as the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve for example, the Royal Naval Supplementary Reserve, the Wireless 1090 Reserve, the Sick Berth Reserve as well as youths of 20 in the Naval Brigade or Ex-Sea Cadets. Finally, there are the Admiralty staffs and the dockyard employés who would naturally prefer naval training. All these categories look to us and are entitled to look to us for naval training. We expect, as a matter of course, that persons in the merchant service, and those in the fishing fleet of the age of 20, will seek to join the Royal Naval Special Reserve which we are constituting under this Measure. The training will be both general and special. In particular it will enable them to handle the defensive equipment which will be available for the merchant service in time of emergency.

§ The Chairman
I have allowed the hon. Gentleman to proceed some way with this statement, but I think it would be better if the remainder of it were made on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

§ Mr. Ede
This is Government obstruction.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
I am obliged to you, Sir Dennis, for pointing that out. I take it that my explanation of the first three Amendments is satisfactory to the Committee and that I need not discuss them any further.

§ Mr. Shinwell
In view of your Ruling, Sir Dennis, I do not know how far you will permit me to proceed.

§ The Chairman
I think we had better confine the discussion to the first three Amendments, which obviously go together.

§ Mr. Shinwell
In view of the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty linked up—I will not say mixed up—several Amendments, I am not certain whether what I am about to say will be relevant to the first three Amendments.

§ The Chairman
Perhaps the hon. Member will get his opportunity a little later.

§ Mr. Shinwell
I was anticipating something of the kind and thought I had better safeguard myself by that observation. I desire to put several questions to the Parliamentary Secretary, because I am anxious to safeguard, as no doubt other hon. Members are, the position of merchant seamen who will reach the age of 1091 20. As I understand the Parliamentary Secretary, it is proposed to establish a Special Naval Reserve, and that merchant seamen, fishermen and others who care to enlist may do so, and when they are enlisted they will be required to serve six months. He was careful to explain that that six months need not be undertaken immediately these men have reached 20 years of age, but may be undertaken at a subsequent stage.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
Within the four years.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Yes, the four years instead of the five years contained in the original Act. The first thought that occurs to me in this connection is that these men are to be in a somewhat different position from the men in the Army, the difference being that men who enrolled in the Territorials before 27th April will not be called upon to undergo six months' training whether now or later, whereas the men who are enrolled in this Special Naval Reserve must undergo six months' training, and equally Naval Reservists or men who are already enrolled, and have been for some time, in the various supplementary forces of the Naval Reserve, services to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred, will, in spite of that fact, be compelled to serve the six months as a training period. That is a distinction for which there appears to be little justification. What applies to the Army should apply to the Navy, unless I have misunderstood what the Parliamentary Secretary has stated.
I want to point out that merchant seamen—and I speak of them in particular for the moment—are in a somewhat different position from men engaged in shore occupations. At the present time there is a serious shortage of merchant seamen, particularly of those who are employed on deck service. There is no shortage of men in the engine rooms and stokeholds, but there is certainly a shortage of able seamen. In addition to that, there are large numbers of merchant seamen, who between the ages of 20 and 21 are employed either as apprentices and will still be in the apprentice stage, or who may be preparing to undertake examinations in preparation for positions as second mate or first mate as the case may be. If these men are taken from the merchant service—and I understand the 1092 number is estimated at round about 2,000 between the ages of 20 and 21—when there is already a shortage of that type of man, it will naturally aggravate the shortage and make it difficult, not only for the men themselves, but for the Mercantile Marine. I wonder whether, when the Parliamentary Secretary states that this service may be undertaken at any period within the four years, that provision has been introduced so that the men may continue their apprenticeship period or, alternatively, may undertake their examinations in preparation for the officer stages. If that be the position, the men will, to some extent, be safeguarded, but the point has not been made perfectly clear, and I want to have an assurance from the hon. Gentleman that that will be the position.
Perhaps I ought to say that, speaking for these men, with whom I was formerly connected and with whom I have still an unofficial connection, there is no disinclination on their part to undertake training of this kind. Indeed, they have themselves, through their respective organisations, made a demand that they should be trained in gunnery practice in preparation for any emergency, and, therefore, I am not basing any complaint on that score. What I have just said induces me to add that many of these men, trained in gunnery practice on existing merchant vessels, will be thereby equipped for any purpose that the Admrialty may have in view, and I do not know how far the Admiralty propose to continue that type of training, even within the four year period, as an alternative to a consecutive six months' training period. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could reply on that point. As regards the question of pay, I understand, Sir Dennis, that you prefer that that matter should be discussed on a subsequent Amendment, and I will leave it there.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
With regard to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and similar Reserves, a person in that Reserve before the 27th April is exempted from the operations of this Bill, just as every member of the Territorial Force or the Air Force is exempted. A member of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve on that date will be treated in exactly the same way. When I was referring to the fact that we were providing this new form of 1093 Reserve, I was thinking of a person who subsequently may join the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve and was not a member of that Reserve before 27th April, and who, when he reaches the age of 20, therefore comes under the ambit of this Measure. On the second point, the hon. Gentleman quite rightly stated that one reason why we changed the form of drafting so that the six months' training might be done at any time within the four years was to meet the special difficulties of apprentices in the Merchant Service. We have had interviews with the Board of Trade and those who speak for the Merchant Service, and I believe that this form of drafting is appreciated for that reason. The third question was as to the form of training. I was starting to develop that when I was waylaid. I was pointing out that trainees from the Merchant Service will receive training that will enable them to perform their task in war-time with greater efficiency. They will be trained in gunnery and signalling and in all work appertaining to convoying continuously for six months and thereafter they will serve for 3½ years.

§ Commander Sir Archibald Southby
My hon. Friend has made it clear in reply to the hon. Gentleman opposite that the individual who had been in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve would be exempt from conscripted service in the same way as people in the Territorial Force. He did not say whether that applied to the Royal Naval Reserves.

§ The Chairman
That question does not come under this Amendment. It will come better on the Question, that the Clause stand part.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
I beg to move, in page 15, line 9, at the end, to add: and accordingly Section six of the said Act shall, in relation to Royal Naval Special Reservists so entered, have effect as if in that Section for the words 'petty officers or seamen of the Royal Navy' there were substituted the words 'non-commissioned officers or men of the Royal Marine Forces'. 1094 This Amendment is to make sure that when a person joins for marine service in this new Naval Reserve his pay when called up shall be that appropriate to his rank in the Royal Marines and not in the Royal Navy.

§ Mr. Shinwell
I want to raise a point which arises from the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary in the previous discussion when he was ruled out of order. I should like some more information as to the meaning of what he said. I understand it means that the men who will be enrolled in this special service will be entitled to the appropriate pay of the equivalent service. Are we to understand that these conscript men will have the same pay as the men employed in the regular services of the Admiralty? I want to be clear about it because it is a point upon which there may be Debates at some subsequent stage, and it is desirable to ascertain what are the Government's intentions. I, therefore, ask whether the pay of these men is to be the pay of the appropriate service to which they will be enlisted?

§ Mr. Shakespeare
During their six months' training their pay is the same as in the case of men called up for Militia training. I think I said that in my first speech, but I referred to the pay that they will receive when called up for service.

§ Mr. Shinwell
I am afraid the matter has reached a complicated stage. I understand that the hon. Gentleman now says that during the six months' training period they will receive what the conscripts in another service will receive, but that after six months' service they are to receive the pay appropriate to the service in which they enrol. I understand that after six months' service they will be associated with the Reserves and be equal to the Territorials in the Army. If that be so how does the hon. Gentleman reconcile the statement he has just made with the previous statement that he made? In the case of the Army the men are to receive during the six months' period a certain sum, but after they have completed their training they will be automatically transferred to the Army Reserve or the Territorials. They will then receive, not the pay of the Regular Forces, but the pay and allowances of 1095 the Territorials or the retaining fee that applies to the Reserve. Is that what the hon. Gentleman meant?

§ Mr. Shakespeare
Yes.

§ Mr. Shinwell
If that is what the hon. Gentleman meant he might have made it a little clearer. That is not as I understood it from his first statement, but if he assures me that that is what he meant, I am satisfied.

§ Sir A. Southby
My hon. Friend referred to the position of men in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and I would like to know whether the same thing will apply to men in the Royal Naval Reserve. Will the men who joined the Royal Naval Reserve before 27th April also be exempt from this Bill? My hon. Friend went through the category of those who would be eligible to do their conscript time in the Naval Service. Could some provision be made whereby the sons of officers and men who have served or are serving in the Royal Navy could be eligible? If the Government are allowing this privilege to the seafaring population, to fishermen and men in the merchant service, they should certainly allow the offspring of men who served in the sea service the right, so far as it can be applied, to do their course of training in the Navy. That should also apply to people like Sea Scouts, who have done their best to follow the calling of the sea, so that when the time comes for them to be called up they should be given a preference to be allowed to train in the Fleet.

§ Commander Marsden
The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned various Reserves, all of which have some form of training. I wish to mention another Reserve, the Royal Naval Volunteer Special Reserve. As I understand it, that amounts only to a list of names of young men—and, of course, old men, but I am referring to those of the age concerned—who have some knowledge of the sea. A list of their names is kept and in the event of war they would expect their ser- 1096 vices to be utilised as officers. The question I am asking is whether, if there is any young man under the age of 20 on 27th April last who is in that Royal Naval Volunteer Special Reserve he will avoid being conscripted, because I can only say that I do not think he ought to avoid it.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) asked how a young person who was a member of the Royal Naval Reserve before 27th April is dealt with. His case comes under paragraph (d) of Sub-section (1) of Clause 2. A member of the Royal Naval Reserve who was a member before that date is exempt in the same way as a member of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. I am sorry that I did not mention that point.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Most of them are above the age.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
Yes most of them are above the age.

§ Sir A. Southby
But not all.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
As to the question addressed to me by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chertsey (Commander Marsden) we consider that a trained person who is a member of the Royal Naval Volunteer Supplementary Reserve—that is what we call the yachting reserve—is entitled to look to us for special naval training, but, of course, that Reserve is not an official statutory Reserve and it may be that somebody belonging to it will be caught in the web of this Measure. At the same time, we should like to give them the naval training for which they have shown a preference by the mere fact that they have joined that Reserve. Let me conclude by explaining briefly this Clause and the purpose of it. I dealt with one broad category, the seafaring community. Several Members have asked me what happens to the men of the merchant service who pass through the Royal Naval Special Reserve. Does it mean that in time of war the merchant service is deprived of their services? The answer is, Certainly not. All who are members of the Royal Naval Special Reserve will remain with the merchant service in time of war except, of course, those who have voluntarily joined the Royal Naval Reserve within the limitations of the establishment.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Does that mean that men may be compelled to remain in a particular merchant vessel?

§ Mr. Shakespeare
No, it means that we shall not deprive the merchant service of the men required to bring our food and other merchant cargoes. Many people think that as we have given the men six months' naval training we shall automatically take them into the naval service in time of war, but that would be a foolish thing to do, because the Navy and the merchant service are together concerned with the problem of securing the regular flow of the country's trade. For example, merchant engineers in their twenties who have become members of the Royal Naval Special Reserve and who are serving with the merchant service will not be taken by the Royal Navy just to meet a possible shortage which might occur at that time. I think that statement will give some reassurance to the merchant service.
I have dealt with the categories for which we at the Admiralty feel that we are liable. There will arise another category, composed of those men, aged 20, coming under the provisions of this Measure, who have expressed a preference for a form of naval service instead of military service. Here the numbers which we take must depend upon our requirements and upon the facilities for training. They are in a different category from those for whom we feel we have an obligation, that is those of the seafaring community.
On the outbreak of war we start training categories of men who were called in the late war "Hostilities only." If under the provisions of this Measure we can give six months continuous training to a number of men we shall, if war breaks out, have a trained reserve who will be immediately available for our purposes while we are training the "Hostilities only" men for later years. The personnel of whom I am thinking—those who have expressed a preference for the Navy when becoming liable to register—will comprise certain numbers for the Fleet Air Arm, certain numbers for the Royal Marines, seamen, stokers and artificers for various branches of the naval service, communication ratings and miscellaneous tradesmen. All these are men whom otherwise we might have to take under the category of "Hostilities only" 1098 at the outbreak of war, but now we have a chance of giving them a useful six months' training if they have expressed their preference to join the Royal Naval Special Reserve. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) made one point as to what will happen to the son of a naval officer or naval rating. Clearly we should like to take such a man who is the son of somebody in the Navy, but I do not think I can give any pledge about the matter. He is the very type of person whom we should like to take in, and no doubt he will express a preference for the Navy.

§ Sir A. Southby
Does not the hon. Gentleman think that they would come under the head of "seafaring community"? I think he might do a little bit more, give some pledge. It is very much desired by the officers and men of the Royal Navy.

§ Mr. Shakespeare
I do not think I can go further than I have gone. If he comes under the heading of those in the seafaring community presumably he will have joined either the Navy or the merchant service.