HC Deb 11 May 1939 vol 347 cc687-91
Mr. Attlee

May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what will be the business for next week?

Sir J. Simon

The business for next week will be as follows:

Monday and Tuesday—Committee stage of the Military Training Bill (4th and 5th Allotted Days).

Wednesday—Committee stage of the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Bill until 7.30 p.m.; and, after 7.30 p.m., Committee stage of the Civil Defence Bill.

Thursday—Report and Third Reading of the Military Training Bill, and of the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Bill.

The Government Business to be taken on Friday will be announced later.

On any day, if there is time, other Orders may be taken.

Mr. Attlee

May I ask whether the Prime Minister has considered the position with regard to the pay and allowances under the Military Training Bill? The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that I asked that an opportunity should be given to the House to express its opinion on the pay, allowances and other conditions of Militiamen, which cannot be done on the Bill.

Sir J. Simon

Yes, Sir; I know that the Prime Minister has considered it. Of course the right hon. Gentleman and the House will have in mind that the earliest batch of these Militiamen do not come into any service until July, but none the less it is desirable to bring the Supplementary Estimate forward as soon as possible, and it will be presented at the earliest possible moment, so that an early opportunity will thus be given for discussion.

Mr. Attlee

My point is, whether we can have an opportunity before parting with this Bill? The right hon. Gentleman realises that this is quite an unprecedented proposal, by which people are going to be ordered to undertake certain work, and this House has nothing to say with regard to their pay. Would it not be possible to have a Motion on the Paper for 7.30 on Wednesday, under which this matter could be discussed?

Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: Do the Government not consider it most important to get the Civil Defence Bill through as soon as possible? I am in entire agreement with hon. Gentlemen opposite as to the desirability of discussing the pay and allowances of Militiamen, but there is no particular hurry about that. The House will have a full opportunity, as I understand it, of discussing the pay and allow- ances before the men are actually called up.

Sir J. Simon

What was said by my hon. Friend behind me was certainly the impression that I had gathered, namely, that the Civil Defence Bill is regarded in all quarters of the House as a matter of very great urgency. I have no doubt that that is the reason that it was put down for Wednesday after 7.30. If it were possible to arrange for a Supplementary Estimate to be taken in the ordinary way there would be no very great difficulty, but that would mean postponing the discussion on the Civil Defence Bill.

Mr. Attlee

I think we all realise the importance of the Civil Defence Bill. In fact, the suggestion has been made with regard to the Military Training Bill that it would be much better to get on with the Civil Defence Bill. But before we part with the Military Training Bill, we should know the conditions under which these men will be trained.

Mr. R. C. Morrison

The Government are treating the Civil Defence Bill in a most unsatisfactory way. We have had two hours this week. Now it is proposed to allow two hours next week. Would it not be better that the House should have a day in which to get on with this Bill of over 70 Clauses in a serious way?

Sir J. Simon

We are allowing more than two hours. I dare say that others would agree that it would be better to do the thing more completely—I do not complain of that. But I think the feeling of the House is that we want to make progress as far and as fast as we can with the Civil Defence Bill. The proposal to take up time allotted to that Measure would be running counter to that desire. With regard to the pay and allowances of these men, we must remember that there can be no question of that matter arising until July, and there is no reason why the discussion of the Supplementary Estimate which will be necessary should take place on the Military Training Bill, with which it is not directly connected.

Mr. Wedgwood Benn

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that this is the first time the Government have taken power to force people to work and give service? Therefore, is it not essential that the House should know how people are to be paid before giving the Government this power?

Sir J. Simon

Provision for the pay of anybody in His Majesty's service is ordinarily made by the presentation of Estimates to the House. If the House passes the Bill it will be necessary to have a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Mander

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that it is impossible to form a true judgment as to the merits of this Bill until it is known what the conditions of pay are to be? I am sure the House would be quite willing to sit on Saturday in order to deal with a matter of this importance.

Sir J. Simon

I can only say that I really do not think that the Civil Defence Bill can be postponed. I think the House as a whole will realise that this is the proper way.

Mr. Attlee

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that we feel very strongly that this raises a constitutional question? Unless we get time for this, we shall have to put down a Motion on the Paper and ask for time for discussion.

Mr. Lunn

Will the Government withdraw the Military Training Bill, in order that we may proceed with the Civil Defence Bill?

Mr. Gallacher

Is not the difficulty a difference between 3s. and 4s. a day? Is Friday, being our last day, to count as a full allotted day, or shall we work late on Friday night?

Sir J. Simon

If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the provisions for dealing with the Military Training Bill, he will find in the terms of the Motion that was passed yesterday what is done about Friday.

Mr. Gallacher

Is it 3s. or 4s.

Mr. Lawson

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the real point at issue lies in the fact that the Government have made a difference between the conditions of these soldiers and other soldiers, and that, therefore, it is a matter for discussion on the Military Training Bill?

Mr. Silverman

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, as recently as yesterday afternoon, the Prime Minister, in reply to a question of mine, said that the method whereby this matter could be discussed before parting with the Bill was still under consideration? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that consideration ended in the discovery of any method of doing that, seeing that the Prime Minister appeared yesterday and the day before, in answer to questions of mine, to agree that it was possible to deal with these matters before passing the Bill?

Sir J. Simon

I do not think the Prime Minister said that. The hon. Member is quite right when he reminds me that the Prime Minister said that the matter was being considered. It has been considered. It is quite clear that the proper way to deal with this is by a Supplementary Estimate. The only remaining difficulty is when we are to take it. The Supplementary Estimate is being prepared, and will be presented as soon as possible. There is no desire to postpone it, but it is necessary for us to get the Bill.

Mr. Mander

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is another question which is considered by many Members to be just as important as the Military Training Bill, that is, the Conscription of Wealth Bill?