HC Deb 28 March 1939 vol 345 cc1995-7

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.

[SIR DENNIS HERBERT IN THE CHAIR.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session relating to unemployment in- surance, national health insurance, and widows, orphans and old age contributory pensions (hereafter in this resolution referred to as 'the new Act') it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

(1) any increase in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament by virtue of Sections twenty-one and ninety-four of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935, as amended by any subsequent enactment (hereafter in this resolution referred to as 'the principal Act'), and Sections twelve and one hundred and eighty-five of the National Health Insurance Act, 1936, as so amended, and Section eighteen of the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, 1936, which is attributable to the passing of the provisions of the new Act relating to holidays;

(2) any increase in the sums so payable by virtue of Sections twenty-one, ninety-four, and ninety-five of the principal Act which is attributable to the passing of the provisions of the new Act relating to Northern Ireland, employment on board His Majesty's ships and Section ten of the Unemployment Insurance (Agriculture) Act, 1936;

(3) any increase in the expenses of the Minister of Labour under Section seventy-seven and Sub-section (2) of Section seventy- nine of the principal Act which is attributable to the passing of the provisions of the new Act empowering him—

  1. (a) to provide training courses under the said Section seventy-seven for—
    1. (i) persons between the ages of sixteen and eighteen who are capable of and available for work but have no work or only part-time or intermittent work; and
    2. (ii) seamen, marines, soldiers and airmen; and
  2. (b) to make payments under the said Sub-section (2) to persons attending a course referred to therein notwithstanding that it is provided only for persons who have not attained the age of eighteen years, except in the case of a course provided under Section seventy-six of the principal Act." —(King's Recommendation signified.) — [Mr. E. Brown.]?

10.4 p.m.

Mr Foot

It seems to me that this is another of those Money Resolutions, of which we have had so many, which are drawn in rather unnecessary detail. I think some explanation is required of why it has been found necessary to set out this Resolution at such length I draw the attention of the Committee to one point only in the Resolution. Paragraph 3 authorises the payment of any increase in the expenses of the Minister of Labour under Sections 77 and 79 of the principal Act which are attributable to the passing of the provisions of the new Act. Why should not the words of the Resolution stop there? Why should it be necessary to put in further words of limitation and to define the expenditure envisaged here as the provision of training courses for persons between the ages of 16 and 18? Supposing it were thought necessary under this Bill to incur additional expenditure for persons outside those ages, any Amendment to do that would be debarred by the terms of this Money Resolution. It does seem unnecessary that it should be expressed in so much detail, and I think we ought to have a word of explanation.

10.5 p.m.

Mr. E. Brown

The considerations which we have had before us in framing this Money Resolution have been, first, that the House should not be unduly debarred from dealing with any matters with which the Bill is concerned, and, secondly, that the Resolution should not be drawn so widely as to raise all kinds of financial issues for the Exchequer which are not within the term of the Measure. I think we have really succeeded in doing that, and the hon. Member will see that for practical purposes we do cover the point which he made. It is true that it is our normal practice not to take young people for training except between the ages of 18 and 35, and since we ourselves only desire to provide for a very small number of those below 17, no very large number of boys just over 16 will be taken in. I appreciate the hon. Member's keen desire to see that we do in fact carry out what is the wish of the House, and it did not occur to us that anybody would want to widen that provision in any way.

Mr. Foot

I agree that it is unlikely that anybody would wish to go below the age of 16, but any one who did wish to move an Amendment on those lines would be debarred from doing so by the terms of this Money Resolution, and that is precisely what the Select Committee in its report tried to avoid.

Mr. Brown

The hon. Member naturally takes a keenly critical interest in this matter, but we are concerned with the practical job of drafting the Measure and we have to have regard not only to theories but to the practical possibilities of trying to meet the wishes of the House.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.