§ Considered in Committee.
§ [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ " That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision, amongst other matters, for securing farmers against low prices for oats, barley and fat sheep, and for securing a market for barley, for promoting the ploughing up of grassland and rendering it fit for arable crops, for the establishment of a reserve of agricultural machinery, and for increasing the resources of any company formed for such purposes as are mentioned in the Agricultural Credits Act, 1928, it is expedient—
§ A. To authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of:
§ 1. A subsidy in respect of land which is under oats, or under a mixed crop comprising oats or barley, in the year nineteen hundred and thirty-nine or in any subsequent year, subject to the following conditions—
- (a) there shall be a higher rate and a lower rate of subsidy, and the higher rate shall not apply to land in a farm which during the first eight months of the year comprised any land under wheat unless the farm is excluded from the benefit of deficiency payments under the Wheat Act, 1932;
- (b) the higher rate for any year shall be a rate per acre equal to fourteen times the difference between the average price per hundredweight for that year for homegrown oats and eight shillings (or such other amount as may be substituted for that amount by an order duly approved) or the rate of two pounds six shillings and eightpence per acre, whichever is the less, and the lower rate for any year shall be a rate ascertained in like manner, but with the substitution of six times for fourteen times the said difference and of one pound for two pounds six shillings and eightpence; and
- (c) the total amount which may be paid by way of subsidy for any year shall not exceed the amount which might have
1672 been so paid if the acreage of land qualifying for subsidy for that year had not exceeded two million five hundred thousand acres.
§ 2.Any increase in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament under Part II of the Agriculture Act. 1937, attributable to any provisions of the said Act of the present Session fixing at thirty- one shillings and sixpence per acre the rate of a subsidy for the year nineteen hundred and thirty-eight the payment of which is authorised by the said Part II, or extending the time for making elections or applications under the said Part II, or authorising the payment under the said Part II of a subsidy for that year at the rate of thirteen shillings and sixpence per acre in respect of land excluded from subsidy under the said Part II by Section seven of the Agriculture Act, 1937.
§ 3.In respect of the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, or of any subsequent year, being a year in the case of which provision is made under the said Act of the present Session for the payment of contributions into a fund established for the purpose of the making of subsidy payments in respect of land under barley, payments into the said fund for each hundredweight of any excess of nine-tenths of the amount of home-grown barley harvested m that year over the amount of home-grown barley by reference to which the amount of the contributions to be paid into the said fund is under the said Act to be determined, subject to the following conditions—
- (a) the rate of any such payment shall not exceed the difference between the average price per hundredweight for that year for home-grown barley used, or to be used, for feeding livestock and eight shillings per hundredweight (or such other amount as may be substituted for that amount by an order duly approved); and
- (b) the total amount of such payments for any year shall not exceed the amount which might have been the amount thereof if nine-tenths of the amount of home-grown barley harvested in that year had not exceeded eighteen million hundredweights:
§ Provided that, in the case of the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the said conditions shall not apply, but the amount of the said payments shall be such as may be determined under the said Act with the approval of the Treasury.1673
§ 4. A subsidy, in respect of land which is under barley in the month of June imme diately preceding the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and forty or any subsequent year, being a year in the case of which provision is made under the said Act of the present Session for minimum prices for home-grown barley, and in the case of which the average price per hundredweight for home-grown barley used or to be used for feeding livestock is less than eight shillings per hundredweight (or such other amount as may be substituted for that amount by an order duly approved), subject to the following conditions,—
- (a)the rate of subsidy for any year shall not exceed two pounds thirteen shillings and fourpence per acre;
- (b)the total amount which may be paid by way of subsidy for any year shall not exceed the amount which might have been so paid if nine-tenths of the amount of home-grown barley harvested in that year had not exceeded eighteen million hundredweights;
- (c)the area of any land in respect of which subsidy may be paid shall be subject to reduction as may be provided by or under the said Act where it includes lands on which there was growing in the said month barley in respect of which the provision aforesaid as to minimum prices has effect by virtue of the said Act.
§ 5.Any expenses incurred by any Barley Advisory Committee constituted under the said Act of the present Session.
§ 6.A subsidy in respect of fat sheep sold or slaughtered in the year beginning on the first day of August nineteen hundred and thirty-nine or in any subsequent year, subject to the following conditions,—
- (a) the amount of subsidy in respect of any sheep shall be an amount, for each pound of the standard weight (as determined under the said Act of the present Session with the approval of the Treasury) of sheep of the description to which that sheep belongs, equal to the amount (if any) by which the average price of sheep per pound for the month in which the sheep is examined under provisions in that behalf of the said Act is less than the standard price for that month;
- (b)the standard prices for the several months in any year shall be determined, as may be provided by the said Act, in such manner as to render the average thereof equal to the standard price for that year; and
- (c)the standard price for any year shall be tenpence per pound, but shall be related to a United Kingdom sheep population of twenty-seven millions, and shall be subject to reduction by one- eighth of a penny for each complete quarter of a million by which such population exceeds twenty-seven millions and by a further one-eighth of a penny for each complete quarter of a. million by which it exceeds twenty-eight millions, and the said figure of twenty-seven
1674 millions shall be subject to reduction, to such extent as may be provided by the said Act, for the purpose of ascertaining the standard price for years following on biennial periods in which the standard price has been in excess of the average price:
§ Provided that the terms of this condition shall be subject to variation by an Order duly approved.
§ 7.Such of the expenses of the examination of sheep for the purposes of the said Act of the present Session as may be thereby directed to be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament, any expenses incurred by the Livestock Commission in connection with the execution of the said Act, and any increase attributable to the execution of the said Act in the sums payable out of moneys provided by Parliament by virtue of Sub-section (3) of Section one of the Livestock Industry Act, 1937.
§ 8.Grants in respect of the ploughing-up, in the year nineteen hundred and thirty- nine, of land then under grass and the bringing of the land into a state of cleanliness and fertility, subject to the condition that the rate of such a grant shall not exceed one pound for a half acre.
§ 9.Any expenses incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries in connection with the acquisition and storage of stocks of agricultural tractors and other agricultural machinery or in doing anything appearing to him necessary for the storage, preservation, and transport of such stocks.
§ 10.Payments, in the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, and in each or any of the nine teen next succeeding years, to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, being payments by way of grant or by way of loan not exceeding in any year sixty thousand pounds.
§ 11.Any expenses incurred for the purposes of the said Act of the present Session by a Secretary of State, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, or the Department of Agriculture for Scotland.
§ B. To authorise the payment into the Exchequer of—
- 1.Any sums retained out of the proceeds of any sale of sheep forfeited under any pro vision in that behalf made by or under the said Act.
- 2.Any sums representing the proceeds of any disposal of stocks of agricultural tractors or other agricultural machinery acquired under the said Act.
§ In this Resolution the expression 'order duly approved' means an order made with the approval of the Treasury and approved by a resolution passed by each House of Parliament, and references to an average price, to an acreage of land qualifying for subsidy, to an amount of barley harvested, and to the United Kingdom sheep population, shall be construed as references to that price, acreage or amount, or to that population, as the case may be, as ascertained in accordance with any provisions in that behalf of the said Act of the present Session."—(King's Recommendation signified.) [Sir R. Dorman-Smitk]1675
§ 11.13 p.m.
§ The Chairman
The effect of the Amendment, if carried, would be so substantially to alter the destination of the money that it is out of order.
§ Mr. Garro Jones
On a point of Order. If I correctly understood you, Sir Dennis, you ruled that my hon. Friend's Amendment so substantially altered the destination of the money that it would be out of order. May I ask if you will consider the whole argument of the Minister which he held out to the House that all persons engaged in agriculture, including the labourers, would derive indirectly substantial benefit from these proposals.
§ The Chairman
Perhaps for the purpose of making the point of Order clearer, it would have been better if, instead of using the word" destination" I had said" the persons to whom the money will go"
§ 11.16 p.m.
§ Mr. Foot
I think we ought to have some explanation from the Minister of why it is considered necessary to present such a Resolution as this. The House of Commons can rarely have seen a Financial Resolution drawn in such detail that it covers two-and-a-half pages of the Order Paper. The Minister may recollect the recommendations of the Select Committee on Money Resolutions. They said 1676 clearly that these Resolutions should not be drawn with unnecessary particularity. It is clear that their recommendations have been ignored by whoever was responsible for this Resolution. I do not propose to go through all the details, but I will give one example to illustrate my point. Paragraph A 10 states:Payments, in the year beginning on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, and in each or any of the nineteen next succeeding years, to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, being payments by way of grant or by way of loan not exceeding in any year sixty thousand pounds.There is a limitation to £60,000 a year. Why is it necessary to put in other details about the particular year? Why should it not be open to hon. Members to move Amendments to the Bill, to alter the particular years concerned. As it is, hon. Members will be debarred from moving all kinds of material Amendments. After the report of the Select Committee we were given an assurance by the Prime Minister, that a circular would be sent to the draftsmen of the various Departments drawing their attention to the recommendations of the committee and telling them that they must not draw Money Resolutions in unnecessary detail, yet we have one Resolution after another drawn in increasing detail, We have a Resolution to-night such as rite House of Commons can seldom have seen before, and some explanation of it is required.
§ 11.18 p.m.
§ Mr. Tinker
It is very difficult to find out from the Money Resolution what is the exact amount involved, but I understand that in the aggregate it is £6,000,000. The House of Commons ought to make some recognition of the fact that this amount of money is being given out in this way. It may be argued that eventually the money will go to the farm labourer, but we are not satisfied about that. The figures given by the right hon, Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) showed that many farmers leave huge sums behind them, and it appears to us that most of the money which is given by Parliament in this way goes into the pockets of the farmers and very little to the farm labourer. A greater proportion, we hold, ought to go to the agricultural worker, and we have attempted, by means of the Amendments which we have put on the Paper, to find some way of achieving that purpose. Un- 1677 fortunately, my hon. Friends and myself are not skilled enough in Parliamentary procedure to know how to word the Amendment: but the real objective was that more of the money granted by Parliament should go to the agricultural workers. Hence, we take objection to the Money Resolution, and I hope that most of our Members will help us to try to defeat it.
§ 11.21 p.m.
§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
I can assure the Committee that in framing the Money Resolution the pledge which was given by the Prime Minister was borne in mind, and the Resolution does leave very large scope for discussion. The Committee may recollect that the Financial Resolution on the Agriculture Act was much more tightly drawn. Of course, I admit that it is a very long Resolution, but it is a very long Bill. The fact that there are two potential schemes means that there are a large number of matters with which we had to try to deal on the Financial Resolution. As far as the loan is concerned I am told that we cannot reconvert the loan, but must leave it till the debentures run out. I hope the Committee will not consider that this. Resolution is too narrowly drawn, because I am informed that it has been drawn as widely as it can be. For the reasons I have given, that it is a long Bill and a complex Bill, the Government feel that such a Resolution is necessary if they are to discharge their responsibilities in regard to public expenditure which were set forth in the Prime Minister's speech.
§ and complex, therefore the Money Resolution must necessarily be long and complex.
§ Sir R. Dorman-Smith
It does not necessarily follow. Of course it is bound to be long if the Bill is long, but I think the hon. Member will agree that most of the paragraphs in it are quite short and simple.
§ 11.23 p.m.
§ Mr. T. Williams
I agree with the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) that this is a very long Financial Resolution, and also that it is a very long Bill. The Bill has been debated for seven hours, and as the balance of arguments from the Liberal benches has been in favour of the Bill it is difficult to understand why the hon. Member should take objection to the Financial Resolution. But I have sat in the House from 3.45 almost without a break for a meal, and I have observed which Members, and on which benches they sat, have been in the House, and I have noted the absence of the hon. Member for Dundee for nine-tenths of the day. I am still convinced, in spite of what the Minister and the Secretary of State for Scotland have said that a case has not been made out for this Bill or for the Financial Resolution. We have tried to make our case, and since hon. Members on these benches, with the exception of one, have voted against the Bill, and since there is the same principle in the Financial Resolution as there is in the Bill, I hope my hon. Friends will now be disposed to go into the Lobby upon it.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 109.1681
|Division No. 176.]||AYES.||[11.26 p.m.|
|Acland, R. T. D.||Broadbridge, Sir G. T.||Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)|
|Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.||Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)||Courthope, Cel. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.|
|Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)||Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)||Cox, H. B. Trevor|
|Albery, Sir Irving||Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. G. (Newbury)||Crooke, Sir J. Smedley|
|Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.||Bull, B. B.||Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.|
|Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)||Bullock, Capt. M.||Cross, R. H.|
|Anstruther-Gray, W. J.||Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.||Crowder, J. F. E.|
|Aske, Sir R. W.||Burton, Col. H. W.||Culverwell, C. T.|
|Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.||Butcher, H. W.||Davidson, Viscountess|
|Balfour, G. (Hampstead)||Carver, Major W. H.||Davies, C. (Montgomery)|
|Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)||Cayzer, Sir C. W. (.City of Chester)||De Chair, S. S.|
|Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)||Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)||De la Bère, R.|
|Beechman, N. A.||Channon, H.||Denville, Alfred|
|Boothby, R. J. G.||Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)||Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.|
|Bossom, A. C.||Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)||Drewe, C.|
|Boulton, W. W.||Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)||Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)|
|Bower, Comdr. R. T.||Colfox, Major Sir W. P.||Dugdale, Captain T. L.|
|Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)||Colman, N. C. D.||Dunoan, J. A. L.|
|Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness)||Colville, Rt. Hon. John||Eastwood, J. F.|
|Brass, Sir W.||Conant, Captain R. J. E.||Eckersley, P. T.|
|Briscoe, Capt. R. G.||Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)||Edmondson, Major Sir J.|
|Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.||Llewellin, Colonel J. J.||Sandeman, Sir N. S.|
|Ellis, Sir G.||Loftus, P. C.||Schuster, Sir G. E.|
|Elliston, Capt. G.S||Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)||Seety, Sir H. M.|
|Emery, J. F.||MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.||Selley H. R.|
|Errington, E.||McCorquodale, M. S.||Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)|
|Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)||Macdonald, Capt. P. (lsle of Wight||Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)|
|Everard, Sir William Lindsay||McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.||Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)|
|Fildes, Sir H.||McKie, J. H.||Smithers, Sir W.|
|Findlay, Sir E.||Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest||Snadden, W. McN.|
|Fleming, E. L.||Minder, G. le M.||Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.|
|Furness, S. N.||Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.||Spens, W. P.|
|George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)||Markham, S. F.||Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)|
|George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)||Maxwell, Hon. S. A.||Storey, S.|
|Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.||Medlicott, F.||Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.|
|Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.||Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)||Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)|
|Gower, Sir R. V.||Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.||Stuart, Lord C. Crichten- (N'thw'k)|
|Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R.||Munro, P.||Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)|
|Granville, E. L.||Nicolson, Hon. H. G.||Tate, Mavis C.|
|Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)||O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh||Taylor, C S. (Eastbourne|
|Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.||Orr-Ewing, I. L.||Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)|
|Gridley, Sir A. B.||Owen, Major G.||Thomas, J. P. L.|
|Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)||Peaks, O.||Thomson, Sir J. D. W.|
|Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.||Peat, C. U.||Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.|
|Hambro, A. V.||Perkins, W. R. D.||Titchfield, Marquess of|
|Hannon, Sir P. J. H||Petherick, M.||Touche, G. C.|
|Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)||Pickthorn, K. W. M.||Tree, A. R. L. F.|
|Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)||Pilkington, R.||Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.|
|Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.||Ponsonby, Col. C. E.||Turton, R. H.|
|Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.||Raikes, H. V. A. M.||Wakefield, W. W.|
|Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.||Ramsay, Captain A. H. HI.||Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan|
|Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.||Ramsbotham, Rt. Hon. H.||Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)|
|Howitt, Dr. A. B.||Rankin, Sir R.||Waterhouse, Captain C.|
|Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)||Ruth bone, J. R. (Bodmin)||Wayland, Sir W. A.|
|Hume, Sir G. H.||Reed, A. C. (Exeter)||Wells, Sir Sydney|
|Hutchinson, G. C.||Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)||White, H. Graham|
|James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.||Reid, W. Allan (Derby)||Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)|
|Jennings, R.||Remer, J. R.||Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.|
|Joel, D. J. B.||Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)||Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)|
|Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)||Ropner, Colonel L.||Willoughby de Eresby, Lord|
|Keeling, E. H.||Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)||Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)|
|Kerr, Sir J. Graham (Scottish Univ.)||Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)||Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel G.|
|Lamb, Sir J. Q.||Rothschild, J. A. de||Wise, A. R.|
|Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.||Rowlands, G.||Womersley, Sir W. J.|
|Leeoh, Sir J. W.||Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.||Wright, Wing-commander J. A. C.|
|Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.||Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.||York, C.|
|Levy, T.||Russell, Sir Alexander||Young, A. S. L. (Partick)|
|Liddall. W. S.||Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)|
|Lipson, D. L.||Salmon, Sir 1.||TELLERS FOR THE AYES—|
|Little, J.||Salt, E. W.||Lieut.-Colonel Kerr and Mr. Grimston.|
|Adams, D. (Consett)||Foot, D. M.||Maclean, N.|
|Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)||Frankel, D.||Marshall, F.|
|Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)||Gallacher, W.||Mathers, G.|
|Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)||Gardner, B. W.||Maxton, J.|
|Ammon, C. G.||Garro Jones, G. M.||Milner, Major J.|
|Banfield, J. W.||Green, W. H. (Deptford)||Montague, F.|
|Barnes, A. J.||Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.||Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doncaster)|
|Batey, J.||Grenfell, O. R.||Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)|
|Beaumont, H. (Batley)||Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)||Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)|
|Bellenger F. J.||Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)||Muff, G.|
|Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.||Groves, T. E.||Naylor, T. E.|
|Broad, F. A.||Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)||Noel-Baker, P. J.|
|Bromfield, W.||Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)||Oliver, G. H.|
|Buchanan, G.||Hayday, A.||Paling. W.|
|Burke, W. A.||Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)||Parker, J.|
|Charleton, H. C.||Henderson, J. (Ardwick)||Pearson, A.|
|Cluse, W. S.||Hills, A. (Pontefract)||Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.|
|Cocks, F. S.||Isaacs, G. A.||Poole, C. C.|
|Collindridge, F. Cove, W. G.||Jagger, J. Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)||Pritt, D. N. Richards, R. (Wrexham)|
|Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford||Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.||Ridley, G.|
|Daggar, G.||Lathan, G.||Riley, B.|
|Dalton, H.||Lawson, J. J.||Ritson. J.|
|Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)||Leach, W.||Shinwell, E.|
|Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)||Lee, F.||Silkin, L.|
|Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)||Leonard, W.||Silverman, S. S.|
|Day, H.||Lunn, W.||Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)|
|Debbie, W.||Macdonald, G. Once)||Smith, E. (Stoke)|
|Dunn, E.(Rother Valley)||McEntee, V. La T.||Smith, T. (Normanton)|
|Ede, J. C.||McGhee, H. G.||Sorensen, R. W.|
|Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)||McGovern, J.||Stephen, C.|
|Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.||MacLaren, A.||Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)|
|Summerskill, Dr. Edith||Watkins, F.C||Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)|
|Taylor, R. J(Morpeth)||Westwood, J||Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)|
|Tinker, J. J-||Whiteley, W. (Blayden)||Young, Sir R. (Newton)|
|Viant, S.P.||Wilkinson, Ellen|
|Walkden, A.G||Williams, T (Don Valley)||TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—|
|Mr. John and Mr. Adamson|
§ Resolution to be reported upon Monday next