HC Deb 13 June 1939 vol 348 cc1227-30
Sir J. Anderson

I beg to move, in page 26, line 13, at the end, to insert "water."

This Amendment gives effect to a promise made during the Committee stage that water undertakings should be placed in the same position as gas or electricity undertakings to which the Sub-section already applies.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir J. Anderson

I beg to move, in page 26, line 14, after "not," to insert "unless they have been guilty of negligence."

This is one of several Amendments designed to meet a point that was taken during the Committee stage. The purpose of inserting these words is to restore any rights that an employé of a statutory undertaking might have under the Employers' Liability Act or the common law in a case where he suffered injury on account of the negligence of the undertaker.

Mr. Ede

It will be within the recollection of the House that when we were in Committee this Amendment was moved in a very short speech and accepted in another very short speech by the Minister, and at that time I expressed my fears as to the width of the indemnity that had been given to the public utility under- takers. I do not want to anticipate the discussion which will take place on the Amendment of the hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest), but in regard to this Amendment clearly public utility undertakers ought not to be excused in any event from the consequences of their own negligence, no matter in what circumstances that negligence may have shown itself. On that narrow issue I think the words submitted by the right hon. Gentleman are an improvement on the original words, and do impose on the public utility undertakers some liabilities from which their supporters in this House wrongly tried to relieve them.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir J. Anderson

I beg to move, in page 26, line 15, to leave out "compensation or."

This Amendment is designed to supplement the effect of the Amendment that has just been passed. It is suggested that the effect of leaving out: the words "compensation or" would be to preserve any rights which the employés of public utility undertakings might have under the Workmen's Compensation Act.

Amendment agreed to.

9.30 p.m.

Dr. Guest

I beg to move, in page 26, line 19, at the end, to insert:

Provided that nothing in this Sub-section shall be in derogation of any provision in the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925 This Amendment is designed to make certain that the rights of employés under the Workmen's Compensation Act are maintained. I am quite aware that it is the opinion of the Lord Privy Seal that, owing to the Amendments he has just moved, and which have just been passed, the rights of workers under the Workmen's Compensation Act are in fact maintained, but I would point out that the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925, subject as it has been to interpretation by numerous legal decisions, is an extremely complicated piece of legislation. I feel quite sure that the Lord Privy Seal will agree with me that it is extremely desirable that there should be no doubt whatsoever that all the rights of workers under the Workmen's Compensation Act are maintained. The only possible objection I can see to this Amendment is that it is not necessary. If it is not necessary, it only adds the words on the Order Paper, amounting to one line and a half. I speak in this matter with a certain amount of experience in the courts as an expert witness in workmen's compensation, and I know how extraordinarily complicated this legislation is. I appeal to the Lord Privy Seal to accept this Amendment and thus to make quite sure, even if there is a little uncertainty about its being necessary, that all the rights of workers are maintained.

9.33 P.m.

Mr. Ede

I beg to second the Amendment.

We are not certain that merely by deleting the words "compensation or" the right hon. Gentleman has protected all the rights that might come to persons under the Workmen's Compensation Act. If a man is fatally injured, and his widow and children have claims against the employers, are those claims rightly described as compensation, or are they damages? The workers of the country have had the unfortunate experience of finding the Workmen's Compensation Act very closely denned by a number of very meticulous legal decisions on the precise wording of the Act, and the whole House would be very disappointed to find that, by inserting the Amendment which was put in the Bill in Committee, we had deprived some widow or orphan of a sum of money that was legally due to them on the death of the workman who had been employed. A man is sent on a job, and it is no concern of his how the job was created. If the man is fatally injured owing to some misdeed on the part of the person who fixed the shelter, or the local authority who advised the person how to fix the shelter that is provided under this Clause, that is no concern of the workman. He is ordered to do the job, and if, arising out of that order, he or his dependants suffer a disability which is regarded as suitable for monetary recognition under the ordinary law as laid down in the Act, we do not think that the peculiar circumstances of the case should deprive him of his rights. We move the Amendment to make that certain and in order that there shall be no doubt in the mind of any judge who has to consider this Clause, or any lawyer who has to advise a trade union or an insurance company upon its effect, that the Workmen's Compensation Act is taken entirely out of the exemption granted by this Sub-section.

9.36 p.m.

Sir J. Anderson

When I put on the Paper the Amendment which has already been accepted, I was under the impression, confirmed by the advice then tendered to me, that those words by themselves would suffice to ensure that the rights of a workman under the Workmen's Compensations Act, or the Employers' Liability Act or at common law, would remain unaffected. I have since, however, been advised that there may conceivably be some lingering doubt in the matter, and in those circumstances, and in the light of the further advice which I have received, I propose to accept the Amendment.

Mr. Ede

As we attach great importance to this matter may I be allowed to thank the right hon. Gentleman very sincerely for accepting the Amendment?

Amendment agreed to.